Muzzy Newbie

[HappyCamper]

I bought my first muzzleloader (.50 CVA Wolf) today and want to pick some of your brains.
1: If I shoot 275 grain TC bullets how much triple 7 powder should I be testing for elk loads? (I won’t be using pellets or sabots)
2: How do I know when I find a good load amount?
3: How many shots can I take in practice before stopping to clean?
4: Should the barrel be oiled after I am done using it for the day or after each cleaning?
5: I know it depends on how much powder I end up using but can someone explain what sort of bullet drop I can expect?

 

[Nick87]

3: How many shots can I take in practice before stopping to clean?

A lot more if your using blackhorn 209.

 

[perma]

I bought my first muzzleloader (.50 CVA Wolf) today and want to pick some of your brains.
1: If I shoot 275 grain TC bullets how much triple 7 powder should I be testing for elk loads? (I won’t be using pellets or sabots)
2: How do I know when I find a good load amount?
3: How many shots can I take in practice before stopping to clean?
4: Should the barrel be oiled after I am done using it for the day or after each cleaning?
5: I know it depends on how much powder I end up using but can someone explain what sort of bullet drop I can expect?

We got a lot of smart folks on here that will tell you all you need to know. I’m not one of them but I’ll tell you what I know.

1. As much as T7 recommends based on the gun. Some guns may not allow a magnum charge so look in the owners manual. Probably no more than 100 gr.

2. When you shoot sub MOA. Lighter bullet may need more powder.

3. Zero but not 100% sure on T7. Unless you use blackhorn 209, clean it. I did a wet patch and dry patch after every Pyrodex shot.

4. I would season it with bore butter instead.

5. I have mine 3” above at 100 yards and expect it to be zero at 125 yards. That’s with Hornady and BH209 though.

 

[F250]

Ditch the Triple 7 and get some Blackhorn 209. Start with 100 gr. By volume.

 

[Sheltowee]

1: If I shoot 275 grain TC bullets how much triple 7 powder should I be testing for elk loads? (I won’t be using pellets or sabots)
Most guys shoot between 80 and 100 grains of Triple 7 by volume. This is different than by weight, which is how loading for cartridge firearms is measured. Load data is available here: https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf.

2: How do I know when I find a good load amount? 1-2 MOA is fairly acceptable for a muzzleloader but, as Perma mentions, many will shoot sub-MOA with the right amount of tinkering. Your effective range will be however far you can consistently hold a 4-5 inch group.

3: How many shots can I take in practice before stopping to clean?
You will likely want to swab the barrel every 2-3 shots but you'll be able to tell when more pressure is required to ram home a projectile. You don't necessarily need to clean back to a shiny bore, just run a few (spit) wet patches through from time to time. You'll also want to clean out your breech plug from time to time if you are getting slow ignition or hangfires. Most companies sell small brushes for this but I've used a tiny drill bit, as well. Triple 7 is notorious for leaving a crud ring where the bullet meets the powder charge. This will be have to be scrubbed out after range sessions.

4: Should the barrel be oiled after I am done using it for the day or after each cleaning?
For the love of God, please no, do not use a petroleum-based oil a muzzleloader unless you want squibs or hangfires (a lessson I learned the hard way). Bore butter, tallow, bear grease, muzzleloader-specific lubricants etc. are much better options.

5: I know it depends on how much powder I end up using but can someone explain what sort of bullet drop I can expect?
Plug your TC's BC and estimated velocity from the Hodgdon PDF into the Hornady Ballistics Calculator: https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/. Will give you a rough idea but you will want to verify on the actual range.



I am a Blackhorn 209 true believer but it can be slightly more finicky than some of the previous generation BP substitutes. You will need to use a 209 magnum primer and potentially a BH-specific breech plug. Check with CVA on that. BH burns more cleanly, consistently and hotter in my experience but Triple 7 is entirely serviceable if that is what you have already purchased.

 

[perma]

I am a Blackhorn 209 true believer but it can be slightly more finicky than some of the previous generation BP substitutes. You will need to use a 209 magnum primer and potentially a BH-specific breech plug. Check with CVA on that. BH burns more cleanly, consistently and hotter in my experience but Triple 7 is entirely serviceable if that is what you have already purchased.

Yep, I learned to never use a wet patch and dry patch in between shots. I had a poor combustion shot after that and was scared it was a hangfire. But it's nice to shoot a second shot without a barrel swab and get sub MOA at 100 yards iron sights....

 

[oxn939]

Some good advice above. CVA Wolf is probably the best value in the entire world of the outdoors, very capable rifles.

Be aware that if you use Blackhorn 209, it is significantly harder to ignite than other blackpowder substitutes and requires both full strength 209 shotshell primers as well as a BH 209 specific breech plug. If either or both of these is not squared away, you will almost certainly have misfires with some regularity. For this reason, I hunt with triple 7. Easy to ignite and less finicky.

As far a barrel cleaning, you definitely need to do this after every range. Especially with "bargain" rifles, they'll get trashed if you don't. I use a wet patch between each round, because when I'm hunting my bore will be clean and I want each shot I practice with the represent the cold bore shot I'd be taking on an animal as accurately as possible.

 

[shannerdrake]

I’m going to go against the grain here (slight pun intended)

BH209 can be finicky with a bit of a learning curve. On the pro side it is cleaner and faster than anything. I have shot 11 straight shots without a swab with BH. Cons - it is harder to ignite and really needs compressed to work well and is sensitive to primer type and primer fit. I’ve been shooting muzzleloaders for almost 30 years and have had more misfires and hang-fires with BH than all the other powders combined.

T7 is dirtier by far but does clean up easy with just water. Also it ignites pretty much no matter what. It’s also right there with BH on velocity.

Don’t oil a ML barrel. Just clean it and run a couple dry patches at the end. UNLESS you are going to store it for a few months. Then put a very light oil and remember to clean it BEFORE hunting/shooting because I’ve seen oil gum up more than one ML.

As far as loads for elk - I care waaaaayyyy more about velocity/energy than tiny groups. So I actually start with max loads. I will give up an inch at 100 yards to pick up more FPS. Of course if it’s spraying all over the place I will dial back.

Here is a screenshot of my MV, energy, and trajectory for my ML. It’s a 270gr solid copper BOR Lock with 84gr by weight BH209. Just note you will start to get low on velocity (unreliable expansion) and energy at 200+.

 

[HappyCamper]

Thank you for all the input. I neglected to mention I actually am shooting a used rifle which may explain some of my struggles. After a week of messing with different loads and bullets I finally have decided it doesn’t shoot well with a warm barrel. My first 3 shots can be within the size of a paper plate at 100 yards (open sites) then it’s anybody’s guess where later rounds may go. Cleaning and drying the barrel between each shot has been my approach and it seems to like powerbelts best.

 

[shannerdrake]

Thank you for all the input. I neglected to mention I actually am shooting a used rifle which may explain some of my struggles. After a week of messing with different loads and bullets I finally have decided it doesn’t shoot well with a warm barrel. My first 3 shots can be within the size of a paper plate at 100 yards (open sites) then it’s anybody’s guess where later rounds may go. Cleaning and drying the barrel between each shot has been my approach and it seems to like powerbelts best.

Have you tried Federal Bor Locks? I really prefer a tougher bullet for elk than power belts and they have always outshot the power belts for me as well.

The solid copper federals will hold together much better than anything PB makes.

Doesn’t surprise me that the hot barrel is giving you issues. Good call figuring that out.

I assume you have got a good look down the bore? MLs get neglected and most of the used ones I’ve seen have had rougher bores.

I picked up a 45cal for $40 that had the worst barrel I’ve ever seen on any gun. I was curious if I could get it back. I did. But it took some work.

 

[perma]

I’m going to go against the grain here (slight pun intended)

BH209 can be finicky with a bit of a learning curve. On the pro side it is cleaner and faster than anything. I have shot 11 straight shots without a swab with BH. Cons - it is harder to ignite and really needs compressed to work well and is sensitive to primer type and primer fit. I’ve been shooting muzzleloaders for almost 30 years and have had more misfires and hang-fires with BH than all the other powders combined.

T7 is dirtier by far but does clean up easy with just water. Also it ignites pretty much no matter what. It’s also right there with BH on velocity.

Don’t oil a ML barrel. Just clean it and run a couple dry patches at the end. UNLESS you are going to store it for a few months. Then put a very light oil and remember to clean it BEFORE hunting/shooting because I’ve seen oil gum up more than one ML.

As far as loads for elk - I care waaaaayyyy more about velocity/energy than tiny groups. So I actually start with max loads. I will give up an inch at 100 yards to pick up more FPS. Of course if it’s spraying all over the place I will dial back.

Here is a screenshot of my MV, energy, and trajectory for my ML. It’s a 270gr solid copper BOR Lock with 84gr by weight BH209. Just note you will start to get low on velocity (unreliable expansion) and energy at 200+.View attachment 289688

What website is that?

 

[shannerdrake]

What website is that?

Nikon ballistic calculator (app).

 

[perma]

Nikon ballistic calculator (app).

They don’t have Hornady Bore Drivers!

 

[oxn939]

powerbelts

I'll personally bet you a hundred bucks your performance improves, both externally and terminally, if you use something other than powerbelts. If you can use sabots, Barnes T-EZs. If not, look at Thors. Powerbelts are kinda like the shitty aluminum arrows in the big bins at Walmart- cheap and easily available, but I'd never point one at a live animal.

 

[HappyCamper]

Have you tried Federal Bor Locks? I really prefer a tougher bullet for elk than power belts and they have always outshot the power belts for me as well.

The solid copper federals will hold together much better than anything PB makes.

Doesn’t surprise me that the hot barrel is giving you issues. Good call figuring that out.

I assume you have got a good look down the bore? MLs get neglected and most of the used ones I’ve seen have had rougher bores.

I picked up a 45cal for $40 that had the worst barrel I’ve ever seen on any gun. I was curious if I could get it back. I did. But it took some work.

With my hunt quickly approaching I think I’ll be stuck with the powerbelts this hunt but will give the thors and bor locks a try next. Definelty going to be in the market for a new muzzy for future hunts as well. Thinking of going for an Accura

 

[shannerdrake]

With my hunt quickly approaching I think I’ll be stuck with the powerbelts this hunt but will give the thors and bor locks a try next. Definelty going to be in the market for a new muzzy for future hunts as well. Thinking of going for an Accura

I agree with not changing this close to the hunt. Be smart with your shots and avoid big bones. Powerbelts are unlikely to hold together on a shoulder or leg bone.

Good luck! I leave a week from tomorrow for Colorado muzzy. Hopefully we both have success stories to share.

 

[HappyCamper]

I agree with not changing this close to the hunt. Be smart with your shots and avoid big bones. Powerbelts are unlikely to hold together on a shoulder or leg bone.

Good luck! I leave a week from tomorrow for Colorado muzzy. Hopefully we both have success stories to share.

I leave the same day for my first muzzy hunt in that state as well. Definitely will have a recap for the forum. Thanks for the tips!

 

[oxn939]

I leave the same day for my first muzzy hunt in that state as well. Definitely will have a recap for the forum. Thanks for the tips!

I'd do a google search on the terminal performance of powerbelts. They are the reason a lot of people give up on muzzleloader hunting. Agreed that it's good to avoid last minute changes, unless you can identify that the item your entire season's success is contingent upon is one of the most notoriously ineffective projectiles ever made. Seriously, don't believe me... go down that google rabbit hole for yourself.

At very least, I'd look around for a pack of these dudes and shoot a group with them before you go to see if they're turn key for you.