MT FWP Tentative Season setting meetings

[Gerald Martin]

I've been going over the harvest data for my home region in preparation for tomorrow's meeting. The trend of harvest success for total elk and numbers of 6 point bulls show a pretty steady downward angle. That angle pretty much correlates to the falling bull/cow ratio the biologist gave at last years meeting.

 

[tjones]

The Missoula meeting was depressing for a couple reasons-

-More FWP staff than public.

-

Good to see at least a few HT'ers showing up. Most guys find it easier to bitch after the regs come out. The same guys find it more important to discuss what socks work best then to show up at a meeting and let FWP know they are not happy.

That said a key piece of the puzzle is to get as much of the heavy lifting done before the tenatives come out.

 

[bigsky2]

Oh, and one of the other things I showed Thompson in the data they provided, the area I hunt elk, they kill EVERY available bull they have, some years their bull harvest exceeds the number of bulls they observe. I still struggle with killing 86 of 65 available bulls, that math doesn't pencil out.

I asked if he thought that was a problem...nope, all is well. He said as long as elk numbers are within objective, they will do nothing to limit the harvest of bulls, bull to cow ratio's DO NOT MATTER.

This is unreal. Thanks for speaking up at the meeting.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I'm not totally sold on the unlimited districts as I think it tends to force people to harvest the first buck they see, rather than be selective.

If you want to grow bigger deer you want people to shoot the first buck they see. It is nice to have the luxury to be selective but it tends to focus the harvest on bucks with better than average genes. The result is that very few of the deer with good genes make it much past three years of age.

I can see that, but in the unlimited districts I've hunted, finding any buck that's over 3 is a trophy. I tend to think the unlimited have had their time, and it's worth exploring other options, like trimming back the season to 3-4 weeks rather than let everyone blast a buck during the rut. If you want meat, there are plenty of opportunities with B tags and whitetail does on your general.

 

[Nameless Range]

I can see that, but in the unlimited districts I've hunted, finding any buck that's over 3 is a trophy. I tend to think the unlimited have had their time, and it's worth exploring other options, like trimming back the season to 3-4 weeks rather than let everyone blast a buck during the rut. If you want meat, there are plenty of opportunities with B tags and whitetail does on your general.

You won't get disagreement from me that the unlimited units are over hunted, but what "other options" are you talking about? Unless you're aware of something I'm not these are the changes for the unlimited districts proposed:

Remove unlimited mule deer buck permits and go to an any buck(HDs 318,335,339,343) or Either-sex (HDs 329,340)

If there are any districts in Western Montana that are worse than the unlimiteds, its the units where you can shoot a buck off your A tag. My prediction is this will result in more dead young bucks than the unlimited structure did, especially in 335,339, and 343 which border Helena. Not that there's anything wrong with Helenans.

I think an unlimited unit with a 2 or 3 weeks season could be an interesting solution that would provide opportunity to those who wanted to hunt one of those districts every year and still grow bigger bucks. I just haven't heard anything other than a proposition to open the floodgates.

 

[tjones]

Very few bucks get killed in this unit but I suspect it has more to do with access then anything. Unlimited permits with a shorter season can be done and it makes you think twice before putting in..

240-51: Unlimited. One per hunter. Permit must be used with a valid General
Deer License. Holders may not hunt Antlered Buck Mule Deer in any
other HD.
• Sep 02 - Oct 15 - Antlered Buck Mule Deer. Archery Only Season.
• Oct 21 - Nov 12 - Antlered Buck Mule Deer.

 

[MTGomer]

I plan to go to the Billings one. I haven't hunted deer and elk much in R5, but want to go for the sake of going. I do have some opinions on R2&7, but not many on 5. I'm sure the muley situation is about the same. Scarce and overhunted.

Does anybody see anything in the R5 proposals that super out of line? I'd could bring it up, within reason.

 

[Ben Lamb]

You won't get disagreement from me that the unlimited units are over hunted, but what "other options" are you talking about? Unless you're aware of something I'm not these are the changes for the unlimited districts proposed:

Remove unlimited mule deer buck permits and go to an any buck(HDs 318,335,339,343) or Either-sex (HDs 329,340)

If there are any districts in Western Montana that are worse than the unlimiteds, its the units where you can shoot a buck off your A tag. My prediction is this will result in more dead young bucks than the unlimited structure did, especially in 335,339, and 343 which border Helena. Not that there's anything wrong with Helenans.

I think an unlimited unit with a 2 or 3 weeks season could be an interesting solution that would provide opportunity to those who wanted to hunt one of those districts every year and still grow bigger bucks. I just haven't heard anything other than a proposition to open the floodgates.

I'm good w/ an unlimited w/ a 3 week season.

There's a lot wrong with Helenans. You've seen our streets, right?

 

[MT_BWHTR]

This will be an interesting meeting coming up in Helena it would seem. Only being eligible to hunt the last two years, and focusing on elk more than anything, I won't have much input. Unfortunately it sounds as if these meetings are similar to what I experienced in KS while working for the Dept. There is a reason I went to work for a different wildlife organization. As soon as KS added Tourism to their wildlife Dept, I knew it was over.

Hopefully I'll learn a few more details, and will only be forced to have 1 or 2 beers after......

 

[HighWildFree]

I was there at the Missoula meeting. I'm a pretty shy dude so I didn't get up to speak, but will submit my comments in writing.

I was pretty surprised to hear that they only information they have on deer populations is from hunter harvest. Basically all they have is an abundance estimate, not a population estimate. All they know whether there's more or less deer than other years, and it's not a very rigorous index either. There's a lot of assumptions that probably aren't being met. Are there more bucks or are hunters getting better at killing bucks?

I've had the chance to work for a couple of fish and game agencies across this country, and they all have a driving philosophy, and that philosophy colors everything they do. MT FWP is opportunity, Success is someone buying a license hunting for 5 weeks and bagging a forky or raghorn. That won't ever change unless the whole mentality of the department changes. I've worked for biologist who had all these great ideas and were going to change the world only to get beat down by the old guard, until they're carrying the same banner too.

But certainly sitting in that meeting you'd think that we were overrun with deer and elk and that we need to put the hammer down on getting these elk and deer under control.

Shame, really.

 

[mtmuley]

Very few bucks get killed in this unit but I suspect it has more to do with access then anything. Unlimited permits with a shorter season can be done and it makes you think twice before putting in..

240-51: Unlimited. One per hunter. Permit must be used with a valid General
Deer License. Holders may not hunt Antlered Buck Mule Deer in any
other HD.
• Sep 02 - Oct 15 - Antlered Buck Mule Deer. Archery Only Season.
• Oct 21 - Nov 12 - Antlered Buck Mule Deer.

Yep, tough access in this unit, but lots of it. Not a lot of roads, that might deter people. It would be my go to 1st choice if I didn't know what was on the other side. In areas with easier access, maybe tag restrictions are the answer. Can't wait till the 16th in Hamilton. mtmuley

 

[Gerald Martin]

Good turn out in Trout Creek tonight. Probably 30-40 people there.

 

[el unit]

Good turn out in Trout Creek tonight. Probably 30-40 people there.

Good turn out in Butte last night too- maybe 40 or more people not including FWP. No one was keen on expanding the youth season to 4 days. Allowing 16 and 17 year olds in the "youth hunt" wasn't accepted by anyone either. If you can legally drive a car, you're not really a "youth"
It also appeared that most hunters were in favor of reducing B tags for both deer and elk in many of the 300 units.

 

[mtmuley]

Just finished my hunter phone survey. Pretty much a waste of 3 minutes. FWP now knows I didn't see any wolves, and killed a whitetail on my own property. That oughta help them out. mtmuley

 

[JEL]

But certainly sitting in that meeting you'd think that we were overrun with deer and elk and that we need to put the hammer down on getting these elk and deer under control.

Shame, really.

This is what our state legislators tell them every two years.

 

[MThuntr]

Dillon's meeting is tomorrow. I need to brush up on the proposed changes and formulate some sort of logical response.

 

[MThuntr]

Just finished my hunter phone survey. Pretty much a waste of 3 minutes. FWP now knows I didn't see any wolves, and killed a whitetail on my own property. That oughta help them out. mtmuley

Holy crap...they just called me serious 30 seconds about the 2 whitetail does I shot and the fact I didn't see any wolves.

 

[MTGomer]

I didn’t get back to Billings last night from work until after the meeting had started due to the freezing rain storm. Anybody make it?

 

[----]

Baby steps-

http://helenair.com/lifestyles/recr...cle_fbfa0483-5159-549d-b6d8-448b151a3340.html

A proposal to conduct limited late-season elk hunting on the Spotted Dog Wildlife Management Area will be replaced with more liberal general season hunting following public feedback, Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks says.

FWP had proposed a drawing for winter shoulder season permits good for the 38,000-acre wildlife management area near Elliston. The walk-in hunt aimed to address an over-objective elk population in Hunting District 215.

“Since we purchased Spotted Dog in 2010, elk populations have increased from 1,716 to 2,850, so they’ve more than realized anybody’s vision for growing elk,” regional wildlife manager Mike Thompson said. “It’s so far above objective that we have to reduce this population or mathematically it’s going to get away from us.”

FWP first conducted shoulder season pilot hunts in a few areas in 2015-2016 and expanded the hunts to more than 40 districts across the state in 2016-2017 and 2017-2018. The hunts are designed to rapidly decrease over-objective districts through private land antlerless elk harvest before and after the archery and general seasons.

As FWP conducts meetings statewide about proposed hunting seasons, Thompson heard, particularly at a recent meeting in Deer Lodge, some concerns about the Spotted Dog shoulder hunt.

Nick Gevock, conservation director with the Montana Wildlife Federation, noted that opening a wildlife management area would be a “major policy change” from other shoulder hunts. Wildlife management areas have been excluded elsewhere in the state along with the National Forest, in part with the goal of reducing private land game damage by pushing animals onto public land.

“It runs counter to what shoulder seasons are subject to do with wildlife on private ranches and farm lands,” he said. “WMAs are lands purchased specifically for wildlife, and Spotted Dog is prime winter ground.”

Thompson also identified some concerns about access in reconsidering the proposal, and public feedback has skewed toward support for more liberal general season antlerless elk hunting, even if that means more hunters in the district. While still examining details Wednesday, Thompson said a new proposal would open the district to a general license for a brow tine bull or antlerless elk.

Public comment on all proposed seasons is due by Jan. 24. More information is available at http://fwp.mt.gov/.

Reporter Tom Kuglin can be reached at 447-4076 @IR_TomKuglin

 

[MTGomer]

Baby steps-

http://helenair.com/lifestyles/recr...cle_fbfa0483-5159-549d-b6d8-448b151a3340.html

As someone who was fortunate enough to spend a little time on Spotted Dog when it was private (my step dad had a log hauling contract there for several years), then hunted it the first year it was bought, and was the only person up there all archery season because word had not gotten out, and who has been there many, many times since, the claim by FWP that elk populations on SD have increased that much - or at all- is pure horseshit.