MT FWP Tentative Season setting meetings

[Pagosa]

I believe moving the season earlier and a shorter season but not to an extreme might be a good starting point. Archery season could be shortened as well, it’s time to come to grips with the fact archers are having a significant impact on the wildlife resource that wasn’t the case 30 or 40 years ago.

I

I couldn't agree more. Archery equipment in the last 15 years has allowed hunters to take game effectively up to 60-70 yards. Elk hunting during the peak of the rut through mid-Oct definitely increases the odds for hunters. I think the opening of the rifle season in late Oct, increases the odds for survival of bulls, and can be a rather tough time to find a bull elk. And allowing archery hunters to hunt another five weeks if they don't fill their A tag, seems rather generous.

 

[mtmuley]

Question for you guys that want to shorten the season. Has it helped in all the areas that it is currently shorter?

We have an area here in the Root that closes early. It's a unit that is tough to hunt so probably isn't a good example. I do know any small buck near a road dies. I've taken a few in the area but had to work for them. mtmuley

 

[belly-deep]

I have been contacting the regional citizen advisory members to discuss our deer season structure and one of the members from Region 1 told me there were only 50 mule deer bucks through the check stations in the entire region this year. That is 1/3 of normal.

Mule deer in Region 1 are not suffering from over harvest. They have a lot of other problems, but that isn’t one of them. The majority of R1 mule deer country is too roadless, thick, and steep for hunters to be a problem.

 

[antlerradar]

Question for you guys that want to shorten the season. Has it helped in all the areas that it is currently shorter?

The difference between southern Rosebud, Eastern Bighorn and Powder River counties in MT and eastern Sheridan and Campbell county in WY is telling. Taking two weeks off the end of the Montana season may help but I think to really see any results the season needs to be out of November.

 

[antlerradar]

I think a three week season in Oct in Montana may actually spread hunting pressure out. Lately the pressure is becoming more and more concentrated in a two week time frame around the peak of the rut. Last year I took a drive up East fork of Hanging Woman and down O'dell Creek on the Custer the second weekend of the season. Only saw a handful of hunters. Two weeks later there was camps, roadhunters and pickups parked on the side of the road just about everywhere.

 

[Eric Albus]

Anybody going to the tentative meeting in Helena? Myself and about 6-8 of my outfitter buddies are thinking of attending, as we will be in Helena for the annual MOGA meetings. Might be interesting to hear what some of them have to say.

 

[Nameless Range]

Anybody hit up any of the meetings last week? The majority are happening this week, and I hope to make it to the Helena one.

I spoke to the Butte biologist last week, and she was an excellent resource and I really enjoyed talking to her. Three big problems I have with current management:

1. The EMP. FWP has a directive to manage for objective numbers. It's so eff'd, and I don't see any real progress happening in a lot of HDs until objective numbers change.

2. Managing adjacent HDs as one unit. I've heard the argument multiple times now, that because HDs are adjacent, and elk wander in between two or three HDs, that we should manage all those HDs the same, and when shooting for objectives we should just combine all those HDs objective numbers and manage the herds as a whole. When in reality, a sub herd or two of an HD may occupy both HDs at one time or another, but managing multiple HDs as one GMU invariably hurts one HD more than another. We need to manage on a finer scale.

3. For some reason, they want to kill every last mule deer in some region 3 HDs and I don't understand why. Getting rid of unlimited permits in districts that have already been extremely mowed down(HDs 318, 335,
339, 343) seems crazy to me.

 

[tjones]

I hear Buzz was in Missoula.

Darby is tomorrow and always interesting.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I'm going to try and go the Helena meeting. There seems to be interest in working on mule deer management around the Helena area, which I'm all for. I'm not totally sold on the unlimited districts as I think it tends to force people to harvest the first buck they see, rather than be selective. I'm also not seeing a lot of older bucks in some of those unlimited districts and wonder if we went to LE for areas we want to build isn't a bad idea. I'm also not opposed to cutting the rut out of certain areas as well.

Eric, if you do show up, I expect there to a couple of adult beverages afterwards where we can solve some of MT's problems.

 

[----]

I hear Buzz was in Missoula.

Darby is tomorrow and always interesting.

The Missoula meeting was depressing for a couple reasons-

-More FWP staff than public.

-FWP repeatedly referring to above objective elk as 'bad elk', and below objective elk as 'good elk'.

-Buzz pointing out that FWP counted 8 elk last winter in the population I took my first bull.

-Our head regional bio spending 15 minutes doing mental gymnastics to explain why Montana's random survey methods are more accurate than other state's mandatory reporting, to then have two other bios later say they want and are hoping to go to mandatory reporting.

-Learning that FWP tracks mule deer populations in region 2 through buck harvest in their random phone surveys and check stations.

The people that do show up are the same 5-6 guys that go to every single meeting, and you can hear how defeated they feel when it comes to our current management.

It's not a good time to be a hunter in Region 2, and it was a nice change of pace to hear Buzz say as much.

 

[BuzzH]

I hear Buzz was in Missoula.

I'm sure they're happy I don't live in Missoula and attend many of their meetings...what a joke. Unless its KILL, KILL, KILL and more opportunity, you may as well save your breath. Didn't want to talk about unit 202 at all...of course, when you find 17 elk in the entire area on a flight...I can see why.

I was really disappointed with the MBA rep that was there...was telling me before the meeting how he's not had many chances to kill deer in 260 the last few years. Then, when the proposal was introduced to increase opportunity to 5 antlerless OTC whitetail tags...he didn't say a word. One would think if the deer were not that plentiful that the MBA would speak up in opposition.

Another thing that was very clear is that the RCFWA has done the right thing by being actively involved in the bitterroot...things are managed a bit differently there. Pretty obvious the influence you guys have had, and why I joined as a life member a number of years ago. Great job.

As to the rest of Montana, nothing is going to change except more killing, more opportunity, and less game on public land.

As per always talking to the leadership of FWP is a gigantic waste of time as I'm 100% sure that any of the things that the crowd brought to the table, to address concerns, will NOT happen.

Its really too bad to see the potential being squandered by the same old, same old.

 

[375H&H]

The difference between southern Rosebud, Eastern Bighorn and Powder River counties in MT and eastern Sheridan and Campbell county in WY is telling. Taking two weeks off the end of the Montana season may help but I think to really see any results the season needs to be out of November.

Are those areas in wyoming really that much better than the Montana side?

 

[HSi-ESi]

I hear Buzz was in Missoula.

This was my first meeting, which could be construed as a sad commentary (since I'm 42) - but I see it as being part of Hunt-Talk has really opened my eyes and I'm stepping up my involvement.

That said, I was very surprised that the presentations and comments were more focused about opportunity - from many angles and not just FWP. I was thinking that it would be more addressing resource issues.

I'm compiling my comments and will have them in (online) within the next week.

I did enjoy Buzz's comments. Many in the room were uncomfortable (kind of like on a HuntTalk thread).

 

[Lawnboy]

3. For some reason, they want to kill every last mule deer in some region 3 HDs and I don't understand why. Getting rid of unlimited permits in districts that have already been extremely mowed down(HDs 318, 335,
339, 343) seems crazy to me.

I made it to the last hour of our meeting. I do agree with your above statement as well.

 

[BuzzH]

This was my first meeting, which could be construed as a sad commentary (since I'm 42) - but I see it as being part of Hunt-Talk has really opened my eyes and I'm stepping up my involvement.

That said, I was very surprised that the presentations and comments were more focused about opportunity - from many angles and not just FWP. I was thinking that it would be more addressing resource issues.

I'm compiling my comments and will have them in (online) within the next week.

I did enjoy Buzz's comments. Many in the room were uncomfortable (kind of like on a HuntTalk thread).

Glad that you stepped up and attended the meeting. What you'll find in short order is that asking them to consider other alternatives, other season structures, etc. is an exercise in futility. It does no good, even when herds continue to struggle on public land.

I hope people were uncomfortable with my comments, that was the goal. I have tried for decades as I listened to their bullchit lies, how they come up with population estimates, winter flights, and why they fail to take any action that will improve hunting for the average guy. Listened to their chit while mule deer in region 2 took the biggest nose dive in the history of deer in Western Montana. Listened while they completely fugged up the goat hunting in the Bitterroot from issuing 75 tags to what, 2 as of last season?

After the official meeting I talked with Mike for about 40 minutes, listening to him babble on about "all they're doing"...I had to put a stop to that. I told him that if they have done so much why is the ONLY hunting that's better NOW than when I started hunting in 1980, wolves, bears, lions and turkeys? I said everything else is worse. He agreed with me, surprisingly. Then, when I asked what he was going to do about it, typical reply, "hunters want opportunity, nothing I can do".

Great biologist, great philosophy....just sit back and do nothing for another 30-40 years.

I always thought, when I was learning about the conservationist hunter, that the goal was to leave things as good, or better than you found them...guess I was wrong. The FWP has no desire, will, or stomach for it. The problems we have are not going to solve themselves. I see no future until Montana hits rock bottom.

In the meantime, I say 365 day seasons, and kill every elk, deer, and pronghorn on private land...its the only way things will change, is a total reset of the way Montana manages. What they do now, or more to the point, what they WONT DO, is going to lead to the same place anyway. Why f-around with it, lets just get on with the killing.

Oh, and one of the other things I showed Thompson in the data they provided, the area I hunt elk, they kill EVERY available bull they have, some years their bull harvest exceeds the number of bulls they observe. I still struggle with killing 86 of 65 available bulls, that math doesn't pencil out.

I asked if he thought that was a problem...nope, all is well. He said as long as elk numbers are within objective, they will do nothing to limit the harvest of bulls, bull to cow ratio's DO NOT MATTER.

I'm really over it...and so glad I don't buy elk tags there anymore.

Not often I'm left speechless by the asinine "management" of the FWP...but not caring what the bull to cow ratio's are until the over-all elk population starts to tank??? That one left me with nothing to say...and no hope of seeing change in my life-time.

 

[brendog84cj8]

I'm sure they're happy I don't live in Missoula and attend many of their meetings...what a joke. Unless its KILL, KILL, KILL and more opportunity, you may as well save your breath. Didn't want to talk about unit 202 at all...of course, when you find 17 elk in the entire area on a flight...I can see why.

I was really disappointed with the MBA rep that was there...was telling me before the meeting how he's not had many chances to kill deer in 260 the last few years. Then, when the proposal was introduced to increase opportunity to 5 antlerless OTC whitetail tags...he didn't say a word. One would think if the deer were not that plentiful that the MBA would speak up in opposition.

Another thing that was very clear is that the RCFWA has done the right thing by being actively involved in the bitterroot...things are managed a bit differently there. Pretty obvious the influence you guys have had, and why I joined as a life member a number of years ago. Great job.

As to the rest of Montana, nothing is going to change except more killing, more opportunity, and less game on public land.

As per always talking to the leadership of FWP is a gigantic waste of time as I'm 100% sure that any of the things that the crowd brought to the table, to address concerns, will NOT happen.

Its really too bad to see the potential being squandered by the same old, same old.

Back in January of 2016 FWP held basically the exact same meeting at the double tree and I was one of the more outspoken people at the meeting and ultimately was quoted in the Missoulian article following the meeting. I left that meeting with basically the exact feelings as you express from this most recent meeting. I feel horrible for not showing up this year but I for one am starting to feel like these "public comment" meetings are just being done as a formality for the "process" and our comments never taken into consideration. When I attended in 2016 to talk about shoulder seasons I saw minimal notes taken by FWP staff and as far as I could tell there was no one there in a formal capacity to take professional meeting minutes. So it did not leave me with any feeling like they cared or were going to do anything to actually take the comments into consideration down the road when making the final decisions/recommendations to the commission.

 

[BuzzH]

Back in January of 2016 FWP held basically the exact same meeting at the double tree and I was one of the more outspoken people at the meeting and ultimately was quoted in the Missoulian article following the meeting. I left that meeting with basically the exact feelings as you express from this most recent meeting. I feel horrible for not showing up this year but I for one am starting to feel like these "public comment" meetings are just being done as a formality for the "process" and our comments never taken into consideration. When I attended in 2016 to talk about shoulder seasons I saw minimal notes taken by FWP staff and as far as I could tell there was no one there in a formal capacity to take professional meeting minutes. So it did not leave me with any feeling like they cared or were going to do anything to actually take the comments into consideration down the road when making the final decisions/recommendations to the commission.

Couldn't agree more...its a clown show. There really is no reason to even comment, no reason they should even ask for comments. Everything on their agenda is a fore-gone conclusion...its already a done deal.

That is such a 180 from Wyoming. I don't always get my way, but, I will say that public comments sway certain decisions, and/or compromise is often reached. Not to mention that I get phone calls from our biologists down here on what they're thinking, wayyyy before a decision is made. Pre-decisional involvement is a beautiful thing.

But, then again, our biologists also care about the resource and have the backing from the GF leadership, the commission, and the Sportsmen here to take the necessary steps to improve our wildlife. They aren't afraid to shorten seasons, adjust quota's, etc.

 

[Eric Albus]

Ben,

I not scared of beer.

 

[antlerradar]

Are those areas in wyoming really that much better than the Montana side?

From my first hand experience and the experience of hunters and guides that I know that hunt both sides of the state line, you should be happy you live in WY.

 

[antlerradar]

I'm not totally sold on the unlimited districts as I think it tends to force people to harvest the first buck they see, rather than be selective.

If you want to grow bigger deer you want people to shoot the first buck they see. It is nice to have the luxury to be selective but it tends to focus the harvest on bucks with better than average genes. The result is that very few of the deer with good genes make it much past three years of age.