Irrelevant
Well-known member
The original science (1994) puts hiking and mt biking generally in the same category while horses and motorbiking cause more erosion.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.625.325&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Mountain Bikes in Wild Places
- Thread starter Nameless Range
- Start date
The original science (1994) puts hiking and mt biking generally in the same category while horses and motorbiking cause more erosion.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.625.325&rep=rep1&type=pdf
I'm glad they attributed research to Montana State University's study;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw24Rjf-dwY5DFgIh2EVSUKK
Tradewind
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the natural progression of "wild' areas and trails. First a trail for feet and horses. then mountain bikes, then dirt bikes. Other motorized variations aren't far behind. The lobbying effort is growing, so I don't think
it ever will stop.
Howie
Well-known member
Any wilderness or wild area, in history, never had recreational hiker/campers, mountain bikers, horses, atv/utv, dirt bike or a armload of hunters as indigenous occupants. Populations are growing and recreation must be allowed. No group can feel superior and must work together or each will lose privliges. More wilderness never hurts, or we will lose it forever.
COEngineer
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I have heard this before, but I cannot understand why you think this is the case. A mountain bike weighs about 30 lbs, a motorbike weighs about 250 lbs. Now compare the power of mountain bike vs dirt bike - going up a crazy steep slope (lots of erosion) is the turn of a wrist for the dirt bike, but completely impossible on a mountain bike. Nevermind that you can ride a dirt bike for as long as you feel like it, but on a mountain bike you are probably not doing more than 5-10 miles in a day.
Just anecdotally, I have hiked on a lot of mountain bike trails that see hundreds of riders every day and I have hiked on motor bike trails that see maybe a handful of riders on a busy weekend. The motor bike trails are always more rutted-out. Have you experienced something different?
COEngineer
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I love mountain biking and have nothing against dirt bikes or horses. But I love the solitude of wilderness. I would gladly give up mountain biking for more wilderness, but I am definitely in the minority on most of these types of questions. Some MTBers freaked out when IMBA (International Mtn Bike Assoc) commented in favor of keeping mountain bikes out of big W. There is a place for everything, but personally, I would lean towards 'too much' wilderness.
scubohuntr
Active member
Why does it have to be all or nothing? Create trails for mountain bikers, absolutely. Fund the project with fines on morons who ride in closed areas and off trails. There should be some roadless areas that welcome mountain bikes. There should be some that are horseback and foot only. There should be some with no horses allowed, only feet. Start with a few bike trails in select areas, and if the mountain bikers behave and take care of them, more will follow. There are a lot of scenic areas that are too close to town for hunting, but would make great bike trails.
The main problem, as someone else stated, is not mountain bikes, but mountain bikers. There are entirely too many hipsters and entitled millennials riding mountain bikes, and many of them refuse to respect anything. They have no concept of shared use, or shared anything, really. All it takes is one or two idiots deciding that they aren't going to let "the Man" tell them where they can ride, and you have a whole new crop of newborn gullies. Idiots don't just ride mountain bikes, either- there are a whole lot of them on ATVs and 4X4s.
The main problem, as someone else stated, is not mountain bikes, but mountain bikers. There are entirely too many hipsters and entitled millennials riding mountain bikes, and many of them refuse to respect anything. They have no concept of shared use, or shared anything, really. All it takes is one or two idiots deciding that they aren't going to let "the Man" tell them where they can ride, and you have a whole new crop of newborn gullies. Idiots don't just ride mountain bikes, either- there are a whole lot of them on ATVs and 4X4s.
I base this on actually seeing the trails used by both. I actually dont do either activity so I have no axe to grind. In fact mountain bikers may be worse as its social acceptable to build new trails. In the previous place I lived undeveloped city property was littered with unofficial mountain bike trails.
Straight Arrow
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I agree and assert that it takes more than passion and rhetoric on behalf of a particular usage to result in real compromise and consensus. It requires manifestation of effort in the form of action. It should be noted that backpackers and hikers consistently and continuously volunteer to repair, maintain, and improve public lands trails. Horseback groups similarly organize work parties and projects each and every year to maintain public lands trails. I am not aware of mountain biker or motorized vehicle trail users working on trails to improve them for multiple use.
D
Deleted member 28227
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Maybe you just don't get out and interact with others in your community. There is a huge mt bike community in Bozeman that does extensive work on south cottonwood, corbly, leverich, first yellow mule trail, etc. The trail work these groups do improves them for everyone, albeit maybe not so much the downhill section of leverich
I have lived in communities with a strong mt biking culture in CO, MT, and VT and would argue that no single group is as active in trail maintenance and does as much self regulation as mt bikers. Here in CO the community has been active in educating riders about not using trails when they are wet,(including but not limited to creating a placing placards at trailheads) as to avoid rutting them out. I have yet to see horseback riders or hunters self regulate trail use to keep them from being destroyed during mud season.https://business.facebook.com/pg/SWMMBAmt/events/?ref=page_internal
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
wllm1313, thank-you for informing and updating my perspective. Aside from Leverich Canyon (which we avoid since hiking it), I was not aware of mt bikers' work in the Bridgers. Anecdotally, I take exception to any evidence of trail improvement on the Bridger Foothills Trail. Last summer when we backpacked it; the footing was treacherous due to ten to sixteen inch deep ruts with three to four inch flat bottoms hammered out by tires. 'No fun hiking.
I do acknowledge the strong biking culture in CO, but point to the decades-long efforts of Montana Backcountry Horsemen groups who complete projects consistently and typically do advocate for avoiding trail usage during runoff. Backpackers and hikers from all over the country similarly have volunteered and worked on Montana backcountry trail improvements for many decades. My obviously limited perspective does not recall widespread trail work by mt bikers or motorized riders in Montana. I am always open to new information however ... and I do advocate for areas of usage for those groups. Albeit, my personal choice as a hunter, hiker, and backpacker is to avoid the narrow bike ruts.
I do acknowledge the strong biking culture in CO, but point to the decades-long efforts of Montana Backcountry Horsemen groups who complete projects consistently and typically do advocate for avoiding trail usage during runoff. Backpackers and hikers from all over the country similarly have volunteered and worked on Montana backcountry trail improvements for many decades. My obviously limited perspective does not recall widespread trail work by mt bikers or motorized riders in Montana. I am always open to new information however ... and I do advocate for areas of usage for those groups. Albeit, my personal choice as a hunter, hiker, and backpacker is to avoid the narrow bike ruts.
COEngineer
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I think there are motivated members of every group and there are slackers in every group.
I have been doing trail maintenance and construction with Medicine Wheel (mtb group) in Colorado Springs and got so used to the idea that us mtb'ers were the good guys...then I went on a 'trail' that some guys from work told me about. It was an erosion nightmare. When I saw these guys at work the next day I said, "That trail is not sustainable" and I got the deer-in-the-headlights look. Either they were genuinely ignorant of the damage they were doing or just didn't care. Maybe I sowed the seed of responsible use, but who knows.
I have been doing trail maintenance and construction with Medicine Wheel (mtb group) in Colorado Springs and got so used to the idea that us mtb'ers were the good guys...then I went on a 'trail' that some guys from work told me about. It was an erosion nightmare. When I saw these guys at work the next day I said, "That trail is not sustainable" and I got the deer-in-the-headlights look. Either they were genuinely ignorant of the damage they were doing or just didn't care. Maybe I sowed the seed of responsible use, but who knows.
D
Deleted member 28227
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Fair point, there are definitely horse groups in CO who are out there every year with saws removing trees that dropped the previous winter... that said any trail I have used in CO that is popular with horses is a complete disaster. As far as the foothills trail goes, it's amazing what 3 or four people on bikes, horses, motorbike... hell even hiking can do to a trail if they ride it when it's super wet... sucks for all users. I also can't speak to the historic work done by biking groups in Montana, I just know that during the 4 years I lived there I was impressed by how active the Bozeman and Helena groups where in doing trail work... especially given the small population of those cities.
Also, given almost all of us practice mixed use ourselves how to you really credit one group with maintenance... am I working on a trail as a hiker, hunter, or bike... and does it matter?
I just got back from hunting elk in an area I have hunted for 30 years. You can jaw all you want about closing roads but that is the dumbest waste of time ever. Strings of side by sides and trucks going on every closed road I was on. I hiked almost 2 miles in to a waterhole and was passed by 3 trucks. They just rolled the blocking logs out of the way or made a new road around them. No signs anywhere. One day my buddy was sitting in my blind with closed roads a mile each way and here comes a new Lexus followed by a new Escalade. The lady driving the car jumps out and pees with my buddy standing 30 feet away. He tells her the roads are closed and the guy in the Escalade tells him they are not closed and proceeds to set up camp gear on the water hole which has always been illegal. The Forest Service asked G&F here to enforce the closed roads and they told them to take a hike. No signs and no enforcement and the law means squat.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
ringer, where? Generally speaking, in what state?
BTW, I do wish HT posters would identify a bit more about themselves and what general location (city and/or state) they are posting from and about.
BTW, I do wish HT posters would identify a bit more about themselves and what general location (city and/or state) they are posting from and about.
Mountain bikers in Montana are HUGE contributors in the effort to improve and maintain trails for multiple use. The supervisor's office of the Lolo/Bitterroot/Helena/Custer-Gallatin/Beaverhead-Dearlodge National Forest would happily confirm as such. Further, open the link below for a visual. I am sharing this as Straight Arrow makes a good point, awareness is essential to acceptance.
https://www.mtbmissoula.org/trail-maintenance
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Thanks for the link. It is good to see all the effort from various diverse groups Share the trail ... and share the upkeep!
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