Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[Mtn-time]

From the feedback we got on the EMCAG, residents won’t accept any sort of limits until we see non resident restrictions.

Not restictions, CUTS.

 

[Mtn-time]

Looking forward to reading the compilation of the groups thoughts.

And furthermore, I want to thank this group for taking their personal time and money to get together. I’d buy everyone of them a beverage of their choice if I ever got the chance. Hopefully my Grandkids will get at least 1/2 the opportunity/quality I have been blessed to have.
GUYS - THANK YOU.

I'm guessing their opportunity will be pick a weapon in an effort to better distribute an increasing amount of clientele.

 

[Stifler]

Thank you for clearing up what I was trying to say @Ben Lamb and @TOGIE Much better put.

 

[antlerradar]

Just sounds like more concentrated pressure with the same amount of people cramming in during 1 month instead of 2. Imagine little malta and glasgow trying to accommodate the amount of people they do over a 2 month period vs cramming it all into 1 lol someone better open another hotel up there.

Right now we are cramming most of the people into the two weeks plus sournding peak rut. If it wasn't for elk hunters the Custer pumpkin patch reminds me of the pressure I experianced during the 80's and 90s during the first part of the season. An Oct season would likly spread pressure out better than the November season.

 

[antlerradar]

I don’t think shortening seasons will magically make people eat more tags. If anything I think hunters may get less picky due to less time allotted. I definitely understand the idea of shifting seasons out of the rut.

This is a good thing if you want to see a few better bucks. I think Carnage understands this, but there are still many that think the key to bigger bucks is don't shoot small ones.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Move the season from October 1-31 and I can guarantee less bucks are killed.
I know plenty of people that don’t even start hunting until after the first week of November because they can drive around all day long and catch a buck cruising for does all day long. Park over the hill and make a 300 yard sneak and kill the buck. I know of one individual that gets two oil changes a rifle season and he doesn’t leave eastern Montana. Ya there will still be bucks killed in October from driving around but way less than driving around during the rut.

I agree. Factor in the fact that until the rut kicks in, bucks tend to have a relatively small home range. There’s a lot of bucks that live most of the year on relatively inaccessible private land that get killed on accessible public land when the rut kicks off. If the season was closed for mule deer when those bucks are in the throes of lovestruck wanderlust you would see an improvement in the age structure and buck/doe ratios in eastern MT.

 

[sclancy27]

Right now we are cramming most of the people into the two weeks plus sournding peak rut. If it wasn't for elk hunters the Custer pumpkin patch reminds me of the pressure I experianced during the 80's and 90s during the first part of the season. An Oct season would likly spread pressure out better than the November season.

You don't think a lot of people would inundate the woods those last 4-5 days of October? That seems a likely scenario

 

[Gerald Martin]

You don't think a lot of people would inundate the woods those last 4-5 days of October? That seems a likely scenario

Folks inundating the woods before the rut is in full swing seems to be a better scenario than the same amount of pressure when bucks are roaming widely and their survival instincts are dulled by lust.

Not all hunting pressure is equal in the amount of critters that get killed.

 

[antlerradar]

I agree. Factor in the fact that until the rut kicks in, bucks tend to have a relatively small home range. There’s a lot of bucks that live most of the year on relatively inaccessible private land that get killed on accessible public land when the rut kicks off. If the season was closed for mule deer when those bucks are in the throes of lovestruck wanderlust you would see an improvement in the age structure and buck/doe ratios in eastern MT.

While it is true that some bucks that live on private land get killed on public during the rut, the number that is dwarfed buy the number that live on public during most of the year and get killed on private during the rut. At best the public land hunter is getting the crumbs.
There are several reasons for this.
If a private landowner has a quality buck, chances are good that the buck is not going to make it more than two weeks into the season.

Look up the old Montana Outdoors article bucks are from Mars, Does are from Venus. The article states that buck prefer the less productive land and leave the more productive land to the does to raise there fawns. In eastern Montana the less productive land tends to be public land and the productive land is the private river and creek bottoms. Once the rut starts those bucks move down out of the hills to be with the ladies and someone shoots them from the fender of the pickup. See it all the time.
Perhaps the largest buck I have ever seen likely survived to old age by leaving public land in Oct and living on a large ranch owned by an absentee owner that did not allow hunting. As far as I know he died of natural causes.

 

[antlerradar]

You don't think a lot of people would inundate the woods those last 4-5 days of October? That seems a likely scenario

I think so at first, but I don't think it would last long. Not much benefit from the rut to over come the risk of waiting until the end.
I am sure that people that were unable to fill would make a last ditch desperation attempt to fill on the last days.

 

[Stifler]

Right now we are cramming most of the people into the two weeks plus sournding peak rut. If it wasn't for elk hunters the Custer punkin patch reminds me of the pressure I experianced during the 80's and 90s during the first part of the season. An Oct season would likly spread pressure out better than the November season.

I was blown away this last season. Truly. Looked like a concert was in town. I just visualize that all crammed into 2.5 weeks. Every Sunday people would head out. Then sunday night it was a whole new batch of trucks ready for Monday morning.

And I could be completely out there. It could ease pressure and push it around more. I personally see it being as much, or more chaos. All I was thinking the whole trip was damn. I shoulda planned this in October before the rut. But that was from a pressure standpoint. Say it goes and we drop rut and only hunt October... the pressure would be the same all season, it would feel like the last 2 weeks. In my opinion.

Fwp still needing the funding from the sales. So I just don't see the NR tags going down in whats allowed. until residents want to pay a little more and/or are willing to pay a state tax to help fund the department.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

I was blown away this last season. Truly. Looked like a concert was in town. I just visualize that all crammed into 4 weeks. Every Sunday people would head out. Then sunday night it was a whole new batch of trucks ready for Monday morning.

And I could be completely out there. It could ease pressure and push it around more. I personally see it being as much, or more chaos. All I was thinking the whole trip was damn. I shoulda planned this in October before the rut. But that was from a pressure standpoint. Say it goes and we drop rut and only hunt October... the pressure would be the same all season, it would feel like the last 2 weeks. In my opinion.

Fwp still needing the funding from the sales. So I just don't see the NR tags going down in whats allowed. until residents want to pay a little more and/or are willing to pay a state tax to help fund the department.

How long do you think our current season is?

 

[Gerald Martin]

While it is true that some bucks that live on private land get killed on public during the rut, the number that is dwarfed buy the number that live on public during most of the year and get killed on private during the rut. At best the public land hunter is getting the crumbs.
There are several reasons for this.
If a private landowner has a quality buck, chances are good that the buck is not going to make it more than two weeks into the season.

Look up the old Montana Outdoors article bucks are from Mars, Does are from Venus. The article states that buck prefer the less productive land and leave the more productive land to the does to raise there fawns. In eastern Montana the less productive land tends to be public land and the productive land is the private river and creek bottoms. Once the rut starts those bucks move down out of the hills to be with the ladies and someone shoots them from the fender of the pickup. See it all the time.
Perhaps the largest buck I have ever seen likely survived to old age by leaving public land in Oct and living on a large ranch owned by an absentee owner that did not allow hunting. As far as I know he died of natural causes.

Do you think more bucks overall would be killed during an October season vs the November rut hunt?

 

[Stifler]

How long do you think our current season is?

Depends if you get after it with a bow in September to November. Some areas around me into December. But rifle October 21- November 26.

2024 regs October 26th to December 1st

 

[Deleted member 48080]

Depends if you get after it with a bow in September to November. Some areas around me into December. But rifle October 21- November 26.

2024 regs October 26th to December 1st

So by your numbers, shortening the season 20% would double the pressure?

 

[huntin24/7]

I think overall fewer bucks would be killed in October because a lot of hunters who don’t take it very seriously being primarily road hunters aren’t going see as many deer if they aren’t rutting. It would definitely be a disadvantage to those putting in minimal effort, which I don’t think is a bad thing.

As @antlerradar mentioned too, it’s a good thing if more guys are less fussy and shoot the first buck they see. I think that potentially allows some of those 2-3 year old deer with better genetics to survive. I think a lot of guys cherry pick those young 4x4 type bucks because they don’t feel the need to shoot the older 3x3 types with the long rut season.

For those that just want some good meat or any buck and don’t really care about killing a big buck, anyone putting a little bit of effort out hiking around can still find a deer to put their tag on.

 

[406dn]

I doubt there is a linear relationship between season length and hunter days. Likely there is some reduction, but I'd suspect that any crowding issues would be exacerbated, with shorter seasons. You have the same number of hunters, who typically hunt a certain number of days. They are not going to reduce the number of days they hunt, imo.

It has been a long downhill slide to get where we are. It will not be easy to get a consensus much different than how things are presently.

Here is my $hit at the wall idea. Make OTC tags valid for mule deer bucks no larger than a two point buck. All bucks larger than that are licensed thru a limited draw. A large number of two point bucks are made every year. Not all of them will get taken. After they run the gauntlet of their first year past being a fawn, the state shields them from some level of hunting pressure. That still allows everyone who wants to hunt mule deer, getting to hunt mule deer. It also gives mule deer bucks a bigger chance of making it past three years old.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I was blown away this last season. Truly. Looked like a concert was in town. I just visualize that all crammed into 4 weeks. Every Sunday people would head out. Then sunday night it was a whole new batch of trucks ready for Monday morning.

And I could be completely out there. It could ease pressure and push it around more. I personally see it being as much, or more chaos. All I was thinking the whole trip was damn. I shoulda planned this in October before the rut. But that was from a pressure standpoint. Say it goes and we drop rut and only hunt October... the pressure would be the same all season, it would feel like the last 2 weeks. In my opinion.

Fwp still needing the funding from the sales. So I just don't see the NR tags going down in whats allowed. until residents want to pay a little more and/or are willing to pay a state tax to help fund the department.

So perhaps there actually are too many people exploiting a limited resource? Perhaps reducing opportunity might be necessary to avoid destroying the opportunity to enjoy an abundant resource in the future?


I’m not necessarily picking on you individually @Visiting Hunter, it just seems to me that folks whose biggest concern when mule deer is the topic is that they don’t have a reduction in opportunity are missing the point.

When my financial advisor tells me my spending habits are out of control, I’m out of credit and will soon be unable to make my payments, I hope I would have enough wisdom to change my habits rather than tell him I’m not willing to give up any opportunity to buy on credit.

 

[Elky Welky]

it just seems to me that folks whose biggest concern when mule deer is the topic is that they don’t have a reduction in opportunity are missing the point.

This is the strawman argument that goes both ways. One side says: "hey, maybe it isn't all doom and gloom and there's a chance to work within this system to improve it" which is quickly interpreted as YOU HATE MULE DEER THEY ARE ALL DYING FWP SUCKS AND THE WORLD IS ENDING. Or, one side says: "I'm worried about the decreasing populations and have some ideas for solutions that would change the status quo" and the response is MULE DEER ARE FINE STOP WHINING ABOUT YOUR TROPHIES AND TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OPPORTUNITY. We argue past each other and this conversation goes in constant circles.

Around and around and around we go.

 

[rogerthat]

I think people underestimate mature bucks in October. A little pressure and they will go nocturnal and there is no reason for them to come out of the cover or be on their feet. A lot of bucks will still get harvested no doubt however harvest would be more opportunistic and less focused. The problem I see with any change that might save a few older bucks is that this flies in the face of Cwd management practices which are to lower age classes and focus more harvest on the older age class bucks. The best way to do that is hunt the rut.