Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[cgasner1]

Just a thought……but do you think that an October mule deer season would decrease the number of nonresident DIY hunters or not. Thoughts?

I think they sell the tags no matter when the season is. Doesn’t matter Idaho and Wyoming sell out with a October season

 

[brockel]

Just a thought……but do you think that an October mule deer season would decrease the number of nonresident DIY hunters or not. Thoughts?

I think it would curb some of them. I’ve talked to a few that say they love being able to rifle hunt the rut. But Montana would still sell out every year I’m sure

 

[antlerradar]

I think one of the main goals of shaking it up in MT should be to find a way to better distributed pressure through out the season. This is how I would describe hunting pressure on the Custer.
First week of the season, It is fairly busy, but the vast majority of the hunters are primarily looking for elk. If it wasn't for elk there would just be a few local weekend warriors with cabin fever out hunting.
Second week, Almost dead, but a lot depends on the weather. Most of the elk hunters have ether filled their tag or are back home waiting for some snow later in the season. Most of the deer hunters have gotten their hunting fix the first week and now they are back home waiting for the rut. If there is snow on the ground there will be some hunters, if the weather is hot and dry you hardly know hunting season is on during the week. By the end of the week people are starting to show.
third week, Full on RV park and pumpkin patch.
fourth week. The RV park and pumpkin patch persists through the weekend before Thanksgiving.
fifth week. It is actually kind of slow on Monday and Tuesday, people start to show up on Wednesday. A lot depends on the weather. If the weather has been good for hunting (lots of snow and cold), it can be a little slow the last week as many people have already filled there tags. On the other hand if the hunting has been tough there can be hunters everywhere. By the weekend people are starting to leave, ether they have filled there tags or they are discouraged. By Sunday afternoon there is almost no one left.

As it currently sets the rut is concentrating pressure in two weeks of the five week season.

 

[antlerradar]

Just a thought……but do you think that an October mule deer season would decrease the number of nonresident DIY hunters or not. Thoughts?

I think the biggest issue is some NR may not be able to fit other states into their schedule. As it sets right now you can always fit MT into a busy fall schedule. Move Montana season to Oct and you may have to make a choice between MT and some of the other states with seasons in OCT.

 

[huntin24/7]

Where I live, the season was 3 weeks long ending around nov 10 when I moved here until around 2010. There was more pressure opening week back then, but even with a shorter season back then, the overall pressure is way worse now. The last 2 weeks are an absolute beat down on the mostly younger bucks anymore. There isn’t going to be any perfect system, but I think something that spreads out pressure more throughout the different regions and species and makes the dates less easy will help. I’m sorry, but I have no sympathy for someone who gets upset because they didn’t fill their deer tag from more challenging hunting dates. It’s hunting. We’re not all going to kill what we want every year, and that’s ok.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Montana is always going to sell their NR tags unless we see some major economic downturn and folks can’t afford to buy licenses.

The purpose of limiting mule deer hunting to October is to concentrate the majority or hunting in a time frame where hunters have less advantage due to bucks not being as mobile, visible, and stupid because of the rut.


Changing season dates is not about improving the quality of the hunt by eliminating hunter competition. That’s only going to be accomplished by limiting the amount of licenses sold and is a different discussion.

 

[WanderWoman]

There’s also the issue of CWD, and a broad-scale, statewide change to end rut hunting would have implications for CWD management and that alone could result in a lot of resistance.

Some districts like up near the Sweetgrass Hills/RMF/High-line have a 3-week general, 2-week permit structure specifically for CWD management but also recognizing the public desire to have some older age class bucks. There are management objectives associated with the percentage of buck harvest via permit where the quota is examined every year. I might have some of the details wrong. But, it might be worth reaching out to that biologist for some more background info.

Doesn’t do much to solve the pressure issue first three weeks though.

 

[Treeshark]

Montana is always going to sell their NR tags unless we see some major economic downturn and folks can’t afford to buy licenses.

I think you’re right Gerald- the appetite for these hunts is still going to be very high and will likely remain so with a season date change.

@antlerradar is correct that an October season makes NR choose between Montana and other Western state hunts- however, for midwestern guys it would also make it easier to fit in both Montana deer and their home state whitetail rut/rifle hunts. So I would expect that would offset for the most part.

It would still be a smart move in my opinion.

 

[antlerradar]

I think you’re right Gerald- the appetite for these hunts is still going to be very high and will likely remain so with a season date change.

@antlerradar is correct that an October season makes NR choose between Montana and other Western state hunts- however, for midwestern guys it would also make it easier to fit in both Montana deer and their home state whitetail rut/rifle hunts. So I would expect that would offset for the most part.

It would still be a smart move in my opinion.

Changing the season to Oct may help the midwestern guy that hunts his home state and one other western state. I am good with that. The midwestern hunter that is doing multiple hunts a year are the guys that are going to have to make some choices.

 

[Big Shooter]

There’s also the issue of CWD, and a broad-scale, statewide change to end rut hunting would have implications for CWD management and that alone could result in a lot of resistance.

Some districts like up near the Sweetgrass Hills/RMF/High-line have a 3-week general, 2-week permit structure specifically for CWD management but also recognizing the public desire to have some older age class bucks. There are management objectives associated with the percentage of buck harvest via permit where the quota is examined every year. I might have some of the details wrong. But, it might be worth reaching out to that biologist for some more background info.

Doesn’t do much to solve the pressure issue first three weeks though.

Oh yeah…….there’s always that conspiracy theory too…….I keep forgetting about that. It’s a good thing that our government didn’t handle COVID testing the same way….

 

[antlerradar]

There’s also the issue of CWD, and a broad-scale, statewide change to end rut hunting would have implications for CWD management and that alone could result in a lot of resistance.

I am not convinced that a long season during the rut is the best option for CWD. The season may even be a negitive, especialy where there is a lot of private land.

 

[MNElkNut]

I have read every page of this thread as a nonresident. One thing that maybe should be included in some of these talks is a nonresident. I do NOT propose they get a say in decision making, but rather to get their perspective. Given that there will continue to be a significant presence from NRs, I think it is prudent to understand what is important to them and what is not. For example, I think you could limit a NR to 7 days. 5 days is too short and anything longer than 7 or 8 just increases pressure. So from this NR, I think limiting to 7 feels about right. I would also require that all members of a licensed party have the same 7 days.

 

[cgasner1]

I have read every page of this thread as a nonresident. One thing that maybe should be included in some of these talks is a nonresident. I do NOT propose they get a say in decision making, but rather to get their perspective. Given that there will continue to be a significant presence from NRs, I think it is prudent to understand what is important to them and what is not. For example, I think you could limit a NR to 7 days. 5 days is too short and anything longer than 7 or 8 just increases pressure. So from this NR, I think limiting to 7 feels about right. I would also require that all members of a licensed party have the same 7 days.

I’m not throwing punches with this comment but the outfitters in the group kinda have the non residents best interest in mind. You may never book with one but a lot of them will.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I’m not throwing punches with this comment but the outfitters in the group kinda have the non residents best interest in mind. You may never book with one but a lot of them will.

I do think his point is important, however. Outfitters understand a lot about NR's but the diy public land hunter doesn't get separated in the field by residency when it comes to pressure & success.

Those NR hunters are carrying over 70% of the license revenue load as well. For the most part, hunters refuse to represent NR's in-state and cede that constituency over to the outfitters who are more than happy to take up that cause for a variety of reasons.

What we have now is a fractured and almost tribal approach to this work rather than a collaborative & methodical approach. We're Lords of the Flies with smartphones & an addiction to conflict generated dopamine.

Keeping in mind how these decisions impact NR hunters is important strategically as well. The Legislature & the Governor are not likely to implement decisions that have a negative impact to revenue.

 

[cgasner1]

I do think his point is important, however. Outfitters understand a lot about NR's but the diy public land hunter doesn't get separated in the field by residency when it comes to pressure & success.

Those NR hunters are carrying over 70% of the license revenue load as well. For the most part, hunters refuse to represent NR's in-state and cede that constituency over to the outfitters who are more than happy to take up that cause for a variety of reasons.

What we have now is a fractured and almost tribal approach to this work rather than a collaborative & methodical approach. We're Lords of the Flies with smartphones & an addiction to conflict generated dopamine.

Keeping in mind how these decisions impact NR hunters is important strategically as well. The Legislature & the Governor are not likely to implement decisions that have a negative impact to revenue.

I’d also think that any change that did come of this wouldn’t be anything that would be for a non resident only.

 

[MNElkNut]

csgasner1, I certainly didnt read that as a punch thrown! No worries!

As a NR DIY guy personally, I do not want outfitters to represent me. For example, an outfitted client gets 2 preference points to my one. Nothing like a poke in the eye from the outfitter lobby to the DIY guy. Ben has a great point in that there are many tribes in this shindig and working together is critical. So it is important to hear from all groups and consider their views. I wonder how many DIY licenses are sold compared to outfitted licenses?

I would like to reiterate that the NR DIY tribe shouldn't be in the decision making chair, but their viewpoint should at least be considered by those that are. Would it help if every tribe wore different colored buffs like on Survivor?

 

[Spahr12]

Even New York has different season dates and regs between the southern tier and the northern tier and we're what; 5 times smaller...

I really wish the best to Montana hunters and Randy's suggestion seems like as good a path towards change as any. I think it's going to be a long road.

 

[Spahr12]

csgasner1, I certainly didnt read that as a punch thrown! No worries!

As a NR DIY guy personally, I do not want outfitters to represent me. For example, an outfitted client gets 2 preference points to my one. Nothing like a poke in the eye from the outfitter lobby to the DIY guy. Ben has a great point in that there are many tribes in this shindig and working together is critical. So it is important to hear from all groups and consider their views. I wonder how many DIY licenses are sold compared to outfitted licenses?

I would like to reiterate that the NR DIY tribe shouldn't be in the decision making chair, but their viewpoint should at least be considered by those that are. Would it help if every tribe wore different colored buffs like on Survivor?

Agreed

 

[stoep]

Did the group of folks end up meeting in Billings?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Yes.