Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[Mtn-time]

so you're actually saying if you want to help out the herds and "walk the talk" you should be shooting does and cows instead of bucks and bulls?

yup

 

[cgasner1]

This could be accomplished by making all mule deer hunting permit only.

The permit is good for the region but is capped at a number that can be supported by the resource. That automatically kicks in the 90/10 split.

How you get a formula that equals out to 21-25k NR licenses and resident hunter distribution would need to get worked out.

It’s kind of one tweak to fix a problem creates 3 more in the draw/ way tags are issued so anything that gets done is gonna result in a reboot of the old system

 

[Ben Lamb]

It’s kind of one tweak to fix a problem creates 3 more in the draw/ way tags are issued so anything that gets done is gonna result in a reboot of the old system

What could go wrong?

 

[cgasner1]

What could go wrong?

I don’t get mine…. I don’t think it can be worse than it is just makes this a bigger hill to climb but one foot in front of the other

 

[Eric Albus]

Of course it’s on the table (shorter seasons on public land, long seasons on private). It’s about money and being able to sell bucks to paying clients, we can’t get in the way of that.

October only season. No rut hunting, on public or private, with rifle, bow, or muzzleloader.

That’s on the table as well…so keep the peanut gallery comments to yourself

 

[Eric Albus]

October general rifle season for mule deer would keep the most hunters in the field. Beyond that I would start at nonresident regional caps and that would eventually probably have to go to resident caps as well. I would include a private land only state wide option for the regional caps as well. Pressure needs to be dispersed.

The Oct season may help some, but does nothing to address crowding… there are season splits to permits for the rut to whatever options being discussed to the point my head may explode… resource first management is what we need… figuring that out for most opportunity isn’t gonna be simple

 

[FREAK]

How about we do a shorter season, mandatory reporting of MD, and get rid of the NR combo tags. Let the biologist set the district quotas based on biology. Adjust quotas according to reporting/winter observations. Beta test it in a region and see how it goes. If I don't draw a tag in the unit I pick, I need to pick another area that has higher odds or sit it out. Exactly what I already do for antelope. MD need a break. Copy antelope, shorten the dates. FWP should be able to digest that plan.

 

[DFS]

How about we do a shorter season, mandatory reporting of MD, and get rid of the NR combo tags. Let the biologist set the district quotas based on biology. Adjust quotas according to reporting/winter observations. Beta test it in a region and see how it goes. If I don't draw a tag in the unit I pick, I need to pick another area that has higher odds or sit it out. Exactly what I already do for antelope. MD need a break. Copy antelope, shorten the dates. FWP should be able to digest that plan.

Getting the math to add up to 21k plus nonresident licenses is a problem. That’s why I think regional caps makes the most sense but Eric makes a good point about the crowding. Mule deer can handle more pressure when they aren’t hunted in November.

 

[TOGIE]

yup

Kill the birthers of fawns to help create a sustainable and growing population of deer?

Interesting take.

 

[FREAK]

Getting the math to add up to 21k plus nonresident licenses is a problem. That’s why I think regional caps makes the most sense but Eric makes a good point about the crowding. Mule deer can handle more pressure when they aren’t hunted in November.

I wonder how many NR would still be interested in having to actually hunt for a Montana MD if they couldn't hunt the rut. I'd guess it would go down a bit initially until the quality starts to improve.

I have to wait a long time to hunt Wyoming deer (at least some of the more quality units). Why are we so hell bent on being an "opportunity" state.

 

[WanderWoman]

Kill the birthers of fawns to help create a sustainable and growing population of deer?

Interesting take.

There are some folks that suggest shooting more does (in an already healthy population) can lead to more, larger bucks.

Their reasoning is that because doe mortality is largely additive, you are reducing the population. Because buck mortality is at least partially compensatory, the loss of that doe means a buck that wouldn’t otherwise survive would. In places/times of resource limitation removing certain individuals is beneficial to others. Obviously that’s a very simplistic way to look at it but I think that’s the gist.

Compensatory/additive mortality and their concepts can describe overarching, 10,000-ft views of ecology and population dynamics but in reality things are very nuanced and much more variable.

 

[WanderWoman]

How about we do a shorter season, mandatory reporting of MD, and get rid of the NR combo tags. Let the biologist set the district quotas based on biology. Adjust quotas according to reporting/winter observations. Beta test it in a region and see how it goes. If I don't draw a tag in the unit I pick, I need to pick another area that has higher odds or sit it out. Exactly what I already do for antelope. MD need a break. Copy antelope, shorten the dates. FWP should be able to digest that plan.

First you’ll have to get FWP to re-adopt quota ranges for bucks and bulls, as those were removed in the last season-setting process.

 

[DFS]

There are some folks that suggest shooting more does (in an already healthy population) can lead to more, larger bucks.

Their reasoning is that because doe mortality is largely additive, you are reducing the population. Because buck mortality is at least partially compensatory, the loss of that doe means a buck that wouldn’t otherwise survive would. In places/times of resource limitation removing certain individuals is beneficial to others. Obviously that’s a very simplistic way to look at it but I think that’s the gist.

Compensatory/additive mortality and their concepts can describe overarching, 10,000-ft views of ecology and population dynamics but in reality things are very nuanced and much more variable.

That’s probably true in areas that have over population issues. That excludes public lands in Montana, at least where I live.

 

[DFS]

This could be accomplished by making all mule deer hunting permit only.

The permit is good for the region but is capped at a number that can be supported by the resource. That automatically kicks in the 90/10 split.

How you get a formula that equals out to 21-25k NR licenses and resident hunter distribution would need to get worked out.

20% to region 6, 20% to region 7, 20% valid on private land only statewide and the rest of the districts can work it out for who is taking nonresidents. Make it an October season and cut the damn doe tags and I believe you would start to see things improve. Or we really put wildlife first and make the number of deer tags that are required to be issued less. That would be legislated.

 

[cowboy]

How about just completely shutting down ANY mule deer for 2 years??
That‘s what should happen but it’d go over politically like a f@&*in church.

 

[brockel]

Let the biologist set the district quotas based on biology. Adjust quotas according to reporting/winter observations. Beta test it in a region and see how it goes.

You’d have to find a biologist that sees a problem with how things are currently managed. Good luck with that well at least in my area of the state. These are the same ones that weren’t happy about private land only doe tags

 

[Schaaf]

20% to region 6, 20% to region 7, 20% valid on private land only statewide and the rest of the districts can work it out for who is taking nonresidents. Make it an October season and cut the damn doe tags and I believe you would start to see things improve. Or we really put wildlife first and make the number of deer tags that are required to be issued less. That would be legislated.

I’d like to see this same chart for other regions. R6 NR pressure was fairly stable until about 2015. Looks to be about 20% of the Combo/Come Home to Hunt total.

 

[Mtn-time]

Has there ever been much discussion on issuing separate Mule deer and whitetail tags. This would provide a level of insight to how much pressure is being placed on mule deer bucks at a start. Maybe those Mule Deer buck tags would be issued at a higher cost to fund efforts for improved research and habitat quality (or maybe a bounty on coyotes). This would be an effort to arrive at sound conclusions with some level of a predictable outcome. Anything to help hold either legislature or the FWP commission to some level of accountability to our investment. As it stands now we seem to lose our voice when anything goes before these two bodies. Both have a reputation of carrying out business on these matters like a bunch of mavericks. Again, I'd be cautious about carrying anything forward to them, as all bets are off as to what the final outcome will be.

 

[Mtn-time]

View attachment 307111
I’d like to see this same chart for other regions. R6 NR pressure was fairly stable until about 2015. Looks to be about 20% of the Combo/Come Home to Hunt total.

Montana is a big state, 3-4 times larger than most other states. How about revising the definition of resident within the boundaries of the state, and issue permits accordingly. Sorry couldnt resist throwing that one out on the table.

 

[Pagosa]

Here's a crazy idea, why don't we shake up the idea of posting videos and social media content that hotspot particular areas and highlight mule deer hunting in R4 and R6:

First Day BUCK! | Montana Jet Boat Deer Hunt (EP.1)

I'm sure most people on this Montana sub-forum are well familiar with how overpressured this section of river is. It's content like this which has resulted in the severe decline of mule deer hunting quality in the Breaks, in this area in particular, and in the corresponding loss of opportunity in Region 4 this year. I don't know how anyone who claims to care about responsible wildlife management and mule deer population management reform can feel comfortable with highlighting a particular area in Region 4. I don't care if you want to shoot 130" bucks, but for the love of God don't tell people where you do it. Anyone want to hazard a guess on how many more people from Washington and Oregon will drag their steelhead sleds over to the Missouri or Yellowstone this year?

I've met Randy on occasion and have seen him at commission meetings and in the Legislature. This is beyond disappointing.

Way to go Randy, just great at burning spots, burn baby burn.