Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[sclancy27]

I’ve watched whitetail and mule deer for years, and have never seen where the whitetail “ran mule deer off”. In fact I’ve witnessed the opposite.

Dominating an area doesn't mean they are bullies. Whitetail "dominate" over mule deer because they are habitat generalists vs mule deer who are more habitat specialists. There aren't many places left in MT where the habitat is so specific to mule deer that whitetails can't outcompete them over time. As the habitat trends more toward generalists we will get more generalists (whitetail and elk) and less mule deer.

 

[Sytes]

You also have disease issues now with EHD having crossed the divide.

CWD is one of the predominate R1 issues with WTs.

 

[Gerald Martin]

CWD is one of the predominate R1 issues with WTs.

@Sytes called it. Currently Libby area seems to be ground zero.

 

[BuzzH]

In Region 1? The only EHD die off I know of west of the divide was in the Missoula valley in 2013.

Correct, that was the year the FWP actually wanted to address it by dropping the number of doe tags an archery hunter could buy over the counter.

Didn't happen because the MBA threw a fit.

 

[BuzzH]

Not in R1, yet, that I've heard of. Crossing the divide was the big issue. Where it goes from there, I don't know. my point was it is just a new issue to keep track of for the NW districts.

Meh, I don't think this is even a concern at all with Mountain Whitetails. They don't congregate over water sources and feed. Second they're spread out over large geographic areas, elevation bands, etc.

Mountain whitetails are not anything like riverbottom/eastern Montana whitetails, at all.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Meh, I don't think this is even a concern at all with Mountain Whitetails. They don't congregate over water sources and feed. Second they're spread out over large geographic areas, elevation bands, etc.

Mountain whitetails are not anything like riverbottom/eastern Montana whitetails, at all.

Anytime a disease moves across boundaries, I think its wise to not ignore it just because convention says otherwise.

 

[BuzzH]

Anytime a disease moves across boundaries, I think its wise to not ignore it just because convention says otherwise.

Yeah, what does the guy that's hunted them for 45 years know about how they behave?

I'd be more worried about lead/carbon poisoning than EHD on our mountain whitetails, that have never had a single issue with it.

That dreaded B-tag disease is what hammered the Region 2 whitetails, and they still haven't recovered from that...16 years later.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Yeah, what does the guy that's hunted them for 45 years know about how they behave?

I'd be more worried about lead/carbon poisoning than EHD on our mountain whitetails, that have never had a single issue with it.

That dreaded B-tag disease is what hammered the Region 2 whitetails, and they still haven't recovered from that.

We never had an issue with ehd in R2 until we did.

 

[BuzzH]

We never had an issue with ehd in R2 until we did.

In a small area in the river bottom, where deer concentrate around feed and water, where the water is stagnant with mud banks in drought years. One time. Not many of the criteria in most areas of NW Montana.

I get it, worth keeping an eye on. But, I'm more concerned about deer getting wiped out on HWY 93, 200, etc. Or over-issuing B-tags, or poaching, or....

Don't think EHD is the issue of the day, or even the last decade, in NW Montana.

Makes for a good talking point though.

 

[SAJ-99]

We never had an issue with ehd in R2 until we did.

The EHD in 2021 ID and WA was pretty severe particularly in the Clearwater region. Hard to guess what happens when higher temps and drought start to become the norm. Regs need to be flexible and hunters need to be understanding.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

Ben- what would you like to be done to address EHD issues in regions 1 and 2?

 

[antlerradar]

Meh, I don't think this is even a concern at all with Mountain Whitetails. They don't congregate over water sources and feed. Second they're spread out over large geographic areas, elevation bands, etc.

Mountain whitetails are not anything like riverbottom/eastern Montana whitetails, at all.

While the whitetails and whitetail habitat in the high country of the Custer is not Western Montana it is likely closer in many ways to Western MT than the river bottoms just 10 miles away. EHD can put the hammer down on the forest whitetails on the Custer.

 

[BuzzH]

While the whitetails and whitetail habitat in the high country of the Custer is not Western Montana it is likely closer in many ways to Western MT than the river bottoms just 10 miles away. EHD can put the hammer down on the forest whitetails on the Custer.

Worth watching.

What is being done to prevent it on the Custer?

 

[tjones]

Didn't happen because the MBA threw a fit.

I remember this. MBA did gripe and a whole bunch of commuters and insurance agents saying whitetails needed more killing because they were dodging them on highway 93.

Hell, there could be only 2 whitetails left between Lost Trail and Eureka and one would get hit by a car with all the traffic.

Road kill does take a toll.

 

[BigHornRam]

Road kill does take a toll.

At least 10 dead whitetail within 1 mile of my house off Sleeping child this past year. Close to same year before. Rarely see hit mule deer locally though.

 

[mtmuley]

At least 10 dead whitetail within 1 mile of my house off Sleeping child this past year. Close to same year before. Rarely see hit mule deer locally though.

I call Bailey Lane to Stevi the Gauntlet. mtmuley

 

[Gerald Martin]

I thought EHD was spread by midges that live around water sources? Especially slow flowing or stagnant?

Also, drought and high heat seem to be accompanying factor?

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ben- what would you like to be done to address EHD issues in regions 1 and 2?

Specific to EHD and this discussion, it comes down to the allocation issue as there is no actual management plan nor treatment - so about the only thing you can do is cut tags at the moment. For R1, I think it comes down to preparedness for the eventuality, even if it never happens, while R2 it would seem that continued monitoring and being ready to eliminate licenses to allow for repopulation.

In the greater scheme of things, if there is a reduction in tags in R1 & R2, how does FWP plan on ensuring spreading hunter pressure out in the other regions that will soak up the hunters, and what does that look like in terms of overall tag allocation if more regions move to either limited entry, or there is a choose your weapon/season option. What is the latest on research on disease and how can FWP help improve that body of science; and are there steps that FWP can take to help ensure homeowners w/water features, etc are not contributing to the problem.

Whether or not it's a major piece of any plan, disease mgt has to be a part of the overall calculation. It ties in to your habitat conditions, forage nutrition, etc. Disease is a big factor in allocation for a number of years post-infection and it can be a big point of controversy when the cuts have to happen, as we've seen.

 

[BuzzH]

Specific to EHD and this discussion, it comes down to the allocation issue as there is no actual management plan nor treatment - so about the only thing you can do is cut tags at the moment. For R1, I think it comes down to preparedness for the eventuality, even if it never happens, while R2 it would seem that continued monitoring and being ready to eliminate licenses to allow for repopulation.

In the greater scheme of things, if there is a reduction in tags in R1 & R2, how does FWP plan on ensuring spreading hunter pressure out in the other regions that will soak up the hunters, and what does that look like in terms of overall tag allocation if more regions move to either limited entry, or there is a choose your weapon/season option. What is the latest on research on disease and how can FWP help improve that body of science; and are there steps that FWP can take to help ensure homeowners w/water features, etc are not contributing to the problem.

Whether or not it's a major piece of any plan, disease mgt has to be a part of the overall calculation. It ties in to your habitat conditions, forage nutrition, etc. Disease is a big factor in allocation for a number of years post-infection and it can be a big point of controversy when the cuts have to happen, as we've seen.

They'll fall back on the hunters will "self regulate" and just move to other places if they can't find a deer to kill if numbers tank. Exactly what they did when they absolutely hammered them with B-tags in 2005-2008. Why would you expect anything different with a disease outbreak?

Tag reductions happen at glacial speed at best, so don't expect any relief there. Plus, if you have no clue how many you're killing or even how many you have to start with, how is it possible to come to a scientific approach to reduce tags in the face of a localized outbreak? You know, like what happened in the R2 river bottom in question? How do you address the issue with the FWP's "macro-management" strategy?

The FWP hasn't a clue how many whitetail there were in that case, how many died from the disease, or how many they had killed via hunting the past decade.

How does the FWP insulate itself, even if they actually had some real data, to prevent what happened with the MBA when they did try to reduce tags?

It's sounding like changes are going to happen, great, good, happy, yada. But really, without very GOOD baseline data on populations, harvest data, etc., IMO/E, your starting off by shooting yourself right square in the foot.

No, they don't have any real good data on either over-all whitetail populations or harvest data for region 2.

I firmly believe the Department prefers when numbers are suppressed so they don't have to field complaints. It's easier to say there's nothing they can do about it.

Like a good friend of mine heard an R2 biologist say at a public meeting, "we know exactly what to do if we have too many, we don't know what to do when we have too few."

Comforting.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ok.

Everyone, let's just give up.

Buzz says it's not worth it.