Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[MTTW]

I have been hunting the same areas for 50 years and can count the numbers of hunters seen on one hand the vast majority of seasons. This year I hunted 31 days and saw 5 ish hunters outside of a parking area. I saw 1 buck bigger than a 2 point and it was 7 miles from the truck. I would guess that 28 of those days I saw zero hunters and about half of the days I saw zero deer. I have alfa glass and decades of experience and also obviously a thick skull.

 

[ismith]

As a last resort maybe. A rush to buy a muzzleloader and hunt the last two weeks might result in a lot of wounding. Just shut it down. mtmuley

I don’t know, if someone sucks with a muzzleloader they probably are wounding a lot of stuff with a rifle.

 

[MTTW]

Predators?

When you are in the pit that we are in you can afford damn few predators. The responsible thing to do is close the hunting season. I know 1 person that shot a deer this year and the same last year.

 

[tjones]

HD 270 is probably one of the most restricted mule deer units in the state, yet deer numbers have been trending down. There is more to the puzzle than doe killing and rut hunting. Those two don’t help on a statewide level but it appears there is a bigger picture. The Bitterroot bio does a great job with surveys.

Bitterroot deer population 'stable' but overall data points to long-term declines

Bitterroot Valley researchers recently completed their winter deer survey. FWP biologist Rebecca Mowry says the population is "stable," but data shows long-term declines since the '90s.

ravallirepublic.com

 

[Deleted member 48080]

I hunt areas that get very little hunter pressure, and the deer are gone.

This is the crux for me also. Our management is absolute clownshoes, but I also hunt units that haven't had a mule deer doe killed in 20+ years, and those populations have also nosedived. Most are limited entry for bucks as well.

 

[8andcounting]

This is the crux for me also. Our management is absolute clownshoes, but I also hunt units that haven't had a mule deer doe killed in 20+ years, and those populations have also nosedived. Most are limited entry for bucks as well.

Because you guys let the the white tail’s take over . They will dominate an area .

 

[Gerald Martin]

This is the crux for me also. Our management is absolute clownshoes, but I also hunt units that haven't had a mule deer doe killed in 20+ years, and those populations have also nosedived. Most are limited entry for bucks as well.

Region 1 predator mortality on mule deer does is @25%. I’m guessing region 2 is probably similar?

Add in increasing elk herds and maturing forests and that might explain some of the decline?


Do you see competition on winter range between mule deer and whitetails in the areas you hunt? I really didn’t see that in the areas I hunted in region 1. It seemed like the mule deer selected different areas to winter in than whitetails.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

Region 1 predator mortality on mule deer does is @25%. I’m guessing region 2 is probably similar?

Add in increasing elk herds and maturing forests and that might explain some of the decline?


Do you see competition on winter range between mule deer and whitetails in the areas you hunt? I really didn’t see that in the areas I hunted in region 1. It seemed like the mule deer selected different areas to winter in than whitetails.

It's so variable. Some of the spots I'm talking about are lousy with elk, but have almost no whitetail. Others have some whitetail but no elk. Generally speaking, I dont see mule deer and whitetail directly overlapping in the winter, but there's certainly exceptions.

They all have predators, but I'm in no position to say how much that directly affects mule deer. I checked probably 20 camera sets this year though, and every single one had at least 2 of lions, bears and wolves. I personally saw 5 lions and 4 wolves this year. During rifle season I cut grizzly tracks every single day I was out after we had snow.

There's a couple giant logging projects proposed in the Bitterroot, and it'll be really interesting to see how those affect things.

I think it's a combination of a bunch of different things, and anyone pinning it on one thing is fooling themselves.

 

[Raisin Bran]

HD 270 is probably one of the most restricted mule deer units in the state, yet deer numbers have been trending down. There is more to the puzzle than doe killing and rut hunting. Those two don’t help on a statewide level but it appears there is a bigger picture. The Bitterroot bio does a great job with surveys.

Bitterroot deer population 'stable' but overall data points to long-term declines

Bitterroot Valley researchers recently completed their winter deer survey. FWP biologist Rebecca Mowry says the population is "stable," but data shows long-term declines since the '90s.

ravallirepublic.com

Good article. Someone finally addresses the rise in Elk numbers also a part of the equation of Deer decline. All be it a small factor but never the less a factor. This should be a part of the list for future initiative considerations or at least conversation.

 

[Gerald Martin]

State wide? Excluding LE of course. mtmuley

Yes, statewide. Including LE. We’re seeing the effects of hunters self distributing to wherever there’s game and an open season. If you shorten a season in one area you need to shorten it in all areas. Three weeks is still plenty of time to hunt an LE permit.

 

[Sytes]

Region 1 predator mortality on mule deer does is @25%. I’m guessing region 2 is probably similar?

Add in increasing elk herds and maturing forests and that might explain some of the decline?


Do you see competition on winter range between mule deer and whitetails in the areas you hunt? I really didn’t see that in the areas I hunted in region 1. It seemed like the mule deer selected different areas to winter in than whitetails.

Not questioning you adversely regarding, "Add in increasing elk herds..."
My observation and that of my in laws multi generational R1 history is elk herds are for crap and need limited with realistic intent vs "unlimited" limited. Elk have been consistently declining from Bob to Ten Lakes.

Maybe different in Sanders area?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Not questioning you adversely regarding, "Add in increasing elk herds..."
My observation and that of my in laws multi generational R1 history is elk herds are for crap and need limited with realistic intent vs "unlimited" limited. Elk have been consistently declining from Bob to Ten Lakes.

Maybe different in Sanders area?

View attachment 309834

Sorry, I wasn’t more clear. I’m not referring to increasing elk herds in region 1 but referring to the historical increases in region 2 as a potential factor in decreasing mule deer populations.

I’m posing it more as a potential and as a question rather than making an assertion that it is a factor.

Currently elk in region 1 are either declining or barely stable. There would have been increases from say 1950-2000 but I think changing vegetation patterns as logging has been phased out has more to do with decreases than elk ever would.

 

[huntin24/7]

Sorry, I wasn’t more clear. I’m not referring to increasing elk herds in region 1 but referring to the historical increases in region 2 as a potential factor in decreasing mule deer populations.

I’m posing it more as a potential and as. A question rather than making an assertion that it is a factor.

Currently elk in region 1 are either declining or barely stable. There would have been increases from say 1950-2000 but I think changing vegetation patterns as logging has been phased out has more to do with decreases than elk ever would.

This is more of a question out of curiousity as someone who lives as far as you can in MT from region 1 and spends no time there. Are any big game species currently doing well there(muley and elk obviously not, but whitetail, moose, etc.)?

 

[Eric Albus]

Because you guys let the the white tail’s take over . They will dominate an area .

I’ve watched whitetail and mule deer for years, and have never seen where the whitetail “ran mule deer off”. In fact I’ve witnessed the opposite.

 

[cgasner1]

Sorry, I wasn’t more clear. I’m not referring to increasing elk herds in region 1 but referring to the historical increases in region 2 as a potential factor in decreasing mule deer populations.

I’m posing it more as a potential and as. A question rather than making an assertion that it is a factor.

Currently elk in region 1 are either declining or barely stable. There would have been increases from say 1950-2000 but I think changing vegetation patterns as logging has been phased out has more to do with decreases than elk ever would.

The last 3 or 4 comments here while having a lot of information in them show why need a new plan. We need to be able to address our issues by region/unit not the entire state.

 

[Gerald Martin]

This is more of a question out of curiousity as someone who lives as far as you can in MT from region 1 and spends no time there. Are any big game species currently doing well there(muley and elk obviously not, but whitetail, moose, etc.)?

Whitetails are about the only species I would say are doing well. They have declined from their peak in the mid 90’s and again in @ 2005-2008 but that more from several major die off’s because of winter kill.

I would view overall whitetail populations as trending steady to upwards. I will say that anecdotal evidence seems to show an overall decrease in buck age and quality as habitat fragmentation and hunting pressure has increased.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Whitetails are about the only species I would say are doing well. They have declined from their peak in the mid 90’s and again in @ 2005-2008 but that more from several major die off’s because of winter kill.

I would view overall whitetail populations as trending steady to upwards. I will say that anecdotal evidence seems to show an overall decrease in buck age and quality as habitat fragmentation and hunting pressure has increased.

You also have disease issues now with EHD having crossed the divide.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

You also have disease issues now with EHD having crossed the divide.

In Region 1? The only EHD die off I know of west of the divide was in the Missoula valley in 2013.

 

[Mtn-time]

Pick a region to hunt for residents and nonresident regional caps. It would not be hard to get this ship headed in the right direction. Frustrating the department has never tried.

I believe that would be a good start. It would further define the level of pressure occurring and provide more opportunity to evaluate region specific issues, once in place. I would also consider it a tool to empower more local control/input in the management of mule deer.

 

[Ben Lamb]

In Region 1? The only EHD die off I know of west of the divide was in the Missoula valley in 2013.

Not in R1, yet, that I've heard of. Crossing the divide was the big issue. Where it goes from there, I don't know. my point was it is just a new issue to keep track of for the NW districts.