Montana ridiculousness- Pref point debacle

[brocksw]

Another thing I’ve yet to get a concrete answer from is if that point you buy goes on this years application or just means you gain the preference point when you apply and you’re unsuccessful.

We’re all just throwing darts at the wall here.

Pref point goes towards this year's draw
Bonus point fee is a participation fee

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The worst part is your odds of getting a returned tag with 2pp is probably 100% thus taking your PP and you cant even get into the LE drawing.

2 or 3 years ago if you got a returned tag you got to keep your preference points. Did they fix that?

 

[WIbiggame]

2 or 3 years ago if you got a returned tag you got to keep your preference points. Did they fix that?

To my knowledge they always took them bc they use them to determine who gets the returned tags ie people with higher pp get the first returned. I know 2 years ago my cousin and I got return tags and had 1pp and we lost the PP.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

To my knowledge they always took them bc they use them to determine who gets the returned tags ie people with higher pp get the first returned. I know 2 years ago my cousin and I got return tags and had 1pp and we lost the PP.

Maybe it was 3 years ago that they didn’t take the PP on returned tags then. And I’m pretty sure it was 4 years ago I bought a pp in the summer when I was holding a combo tag already.. they are sure dialed.

 

[BlakeA]

Maybe it was 3 years ago that they didn’t take the PP on returned tags then. And I’m pretty sure it was 4 years ago I bought a pp in the summer when I was holding a combo tag already.. they are sure dialed.

You are correct.

 

[8andcounting]

Maybe it was 3 years ago that they didn’t take the PP on returned tags then. And I’m pretty sure it was 4 years ago I bought a pp in the summer when I was holding a combo tag already.. they are sure dialed.

Yup correct

 

[ignorethefringes]

Yup correct

Dad got a returned tag via the alternate list last year but it's still showing that he has 1 point on MyFWP.com. Will that update at some point to 0?

 

[ignorethefringes]

Big game Combo:
12,883 tags availabe
309 with 3pp (roughly 300 has been the average the last 3 years)

12600 available for 2pp
10585 didn't draw with 1pp last year so now have 2pp.

Outfitters say they take about 25-30% of licenses annually say its 20% of the 12600 is 2520 of the applicants will have 2pp to start just by welfare.

So you have 10585 DIY people plus the 2520 outfitter welfare tags is 13105 for the 12600 at 2pp. Making your odds 96% without even figuring in the people who just bought a point last year, with plans of applying with 2pp this year.

Looking at the past 3 years there's roughly 1000 people that are buying a pt and not applying with 1 and waiting for 2pp.

So if you add the 1000 average growth you have 14000 people applying for 12600 tags odds of 90%. So my 75-80% might have been low probably closer to 90% odds with 2pp.

However, I feel the real kick in the shorts is you will almost be 100% to lose your PP when you pull a leftover tag.

I thought the leftover tags didn't use your points since they are totally random draw via random number assignment?

 

[WIbiggame]

I thought the leftover tags didn't use your points since they are totally random draw via random number assignment?

My understanding has always been they go by PP. I spoke with a FWP agent last fall about this and she told me they go by PP number. It is random with all the people who didn't draw and have the same number of PP's yes but they use the group with the highest number of PP first.

And I know for a fact when my cousin and got returned licenses we lost our PP we had purchased.

Edit: Now if you are referring to the alternate list than you are correct that is randomized after you sign up for the list and doesn't use any PP. I am referring to in the draw when you get a returned license bc someone didn't draw their LE permit so they decide to take a refund and forfeit they general tag.

 

[8andcounting]

Dad got a returned tag via the alternate list last year but it's still showing that he has 1 point on MyFWP.com. Will that update at some point to 0?

No …. I’m in same boat . Getting a tag on alternates list does NOT affect your pp

 

[8andcounting]

I’ll have 2 after I buy one at time of app - and probably still won’t draw lol

 

[WIbiggame]

I’ll have 2 after I buy one at time of app - and probably still won’t draw lol

I thought you were done hunting last year anyway? Best of luck in the draw. 4 less applicants from WI this year.

 

[8andcounting]

I thought you were done hunting last year anyway? Best of luck in the draw. 4 less applicants from WI this year.

I have elk points to burn - if I draw a bg combo and actually get entered in the draw for a LE permit , I’ll have a decent chance . 2 big If’s . I applied for deer in Wyoming so if I don’t draw in montana I’m fine with that

 

[Zim]

I can't be the only nonresident reading threads like this and thinking that it validates my choice a few years ago to skip Montana and buy points in other states instead.

QQ

Lol, nope you are definitely not alone. I was already in enough Ponzi schemes in other states to join in this one. Actually began cashing & exiting some systems a few years ago. Still have too many points in too many states to use all of at my age 61. Trying to burn some every year, but definitely no regrets sitting out this Montana fiasco. They were too pricey for the quality I experienced in the general units. Tried it as a plan B but no thanks. I’m sure some of the gen griz units are good.

 

[Shangobango]

I guess the reality just smacked me in the face when I read the deer, elk, antelope, regs just now that since I bought a PP last year and don’t plan on applying this year, that I just wasted that 50 bucks because my points will be zeroed after this year. Am I understanding that right?

Also, I see the pp’s now cost a hundo. That is adding up to one hella expensive mediocre deer tag if you go in with 2 or 3 points.

If the goal is to disenfranchise NR DIY hunters…Well played Montana, well played.

 

[brocksw]

I guess the reality just smacked me in the face when I read the deer, elk, antelope, regs just now that since I bought a PP last year and don’t plan on applying this year, that I just wasted that 50 bucks because my points will be zeroed after this year. Am I understanding that right?

Also, I see the pp’s now cost a hundo. That is adding up to one hella expensive mediocre deer tag if you go in with 2 or 3 points.

If the goal is to disenfranchise NR DIY hunters…Well played Montana, well played.

If this trend continues, hindsight will illustrate that the goal was to convert all the poors (aka NR DIY public land hunters) to the 25% Random pool by limiting flexibility in saving points and increasing prices. This frees the private land/guided hunters from the unwashed masses. They are awarded 2 pref points every year for their guaranteed trophy bull tag. They can afford the increasing price and don't have to spend any time saving points or strategizing how to find success in the convuluted point/draw system.

 

[Shangobango]

If this trend continues, hindsight will illustrate that the goal was to convert all the poors (aka NR DIY public land hunters) to the 25% Random pool by limiting flexibility in saving points and increasing prices. This frees the private land/guided hunters from the unwashed masses. They are awarded 2 pref points every year for their guaranteed trophy bull tag. They can afford the increasing price and don't have to spend any time saving points or strategizing how to find success in the convuluted point/draw system.

Sounds like that is a reasonable conclusion. I think I will still participate in the PP just to take one tag away from the outfitters. Worth every penny…

 

[seeth07]

I guess the reality just smacked me in the face when I read the deer, elk, antelope, regs just now that since I bought a PP last year and don’t plan on applying this year, that I just wasted that 50 bucks because my points will be zeroed after this year. Am I understanding that right?

Also, I see the pp’s now cost a hundo. That is adding up to one hella expensive mediocre deer tag if you go in with 2 or 3 points.

If the goal is to disenfranchise NR DIY hunters…Well played Montana, well played.

Did you apply last year though or just bought the point afterwards? I think that part matters because you can miss one app period and not lose your points now? So if you didn't apply last year, bought the point afterwards and then don't apply this year and again buy a point, you will enter next year with 2pp into the draw.

 

[Shangobango]

Did you apply last year though or just bought the point afterwards? I think that part matters because you can miss one app period and not lose your points now? So if you didn't apply last year, bought the point afterwards and then don't apply this year and again buy a point, you will enter next year with 2pp into the draw.

No I did not apply last season. I just bought preference and bonus points in July.

I was planning on hunting Montana next season. I should be a shoe in for a Wyoming deer tag this season.

My concern was that since I didn’t apply last season and bought a point, and am not applying this season, I would lose the point I bought last season.

I was planning buying another point in July, another when I apply for 2023, and going into the draw with 3.

Good grief, after typing all that convoluted mess I need a drink…

 

[WIbiggame]

So the above post by @seeth07 got me thinking. I will call FWP Monday and ask but figured I would ask here first.

My brother just bought a PP in 2021 summer he didn't apply for a combo. Does he have to apply this spring or can he sit out buy a PP this summer and go into the draw in 2023 with 2 plus the 1 he will buy in '23.