Montana on the Upswing?

[RuralMT]

On note of the topic, with respect to the area I'm most familiar:

For opening weekend - Rifle:

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks :: Slightly Below-Average Harvest for Northwest Montana Big Game Opener

fwp.mt.gov

Agreed; my apologies for derailing the thread. How do those numbers fare with what you've experienced in the past? I find it interesting that the Highway 2 check station (presumably the one between Kalispell and Kila?) checked twice the hunters as Olney, yet the Olney station saw the same amount of whitetails.

 

[Sytes]

Hwy 2 recorded 9 elk and that total is almost as large as the total of elk taken from all the other Region 1 check stations combined (11). Flathead residents seem more focused on Sanders and bordering area for elk vs wt deer for rifle opener. Whereas Olney reflects close to 1/5th the elk checked and that matches pretty close to the qty of hunters checked. Much better elk W of Kalispell, much better deer North based on the stats

I chopped the elk stats off the picture to keep with the deer intent of the thread though looking back, that somewhat skewed the overall picture. Check the link to see the elk in relation to the qty of hunters checked.

 

[antlerradar]

I've heard it said in several places that this is what FWP expects. That hunters will self-regulate moving from poor hunting units to better ones, which in theory will let the poor units recover as hunting pressure shifts. But given the lack of recovery in the western units and the downward trend of mule deer across the West it will be interesting to see what happens when the bottom falls out of eastern MT.

I would like to see a state-wide unit specific deer tag and a 3 week season.

I have also herd this. FWP calls this this the law of diminishing returns. In theory better info should improve the results of this management practice. The reality on the ground is that hunter flock to a place as soon as it starts to recover and the recovery ends as soon as it starts. The big killer of the law of diminishing returns management is access. Once landowners start ot restrict access hunters are forced onto open private and public. The open private is overwhelmed and those landowners start to restrict access. What started out as a few landowners in the 1980's becomes a big brown snow ball very quickly. I am not saying that the law of diminishing returns is the only reason that access to most private in Montana is now restricted but is a big part of the picture. When access is no longer available the law of diminishing returns management fails every time.

 

[Outlaw99]

My observations as a first time DIY’r to SE Montana for mule deer. I’m fortunate to live and farm and own considerable land in so Iowa. We have the ability to micro manage our whitetail herd as a vast majority of our land it bordered by the Missouri River, and 3 separate large chunks of state game refuge land. As a whole, our deer don’t leave and see little pressure from anyone besides ourselves, and the few others we allow to hunt our land. For as long as I can remember, for the most part, anything under 150” gets a pass and we all shoot as many does as we need to fill our freezers. Recent bouts of EHD has hurt us, but as a result of our management, we‘ve all been able to take numerous 160” to even a few 190”’s over the years. That’s my background on a micro scale.

Fast forward to this year. I’ve hunted elk in Montana and Colorado and been successful, but never in my life hunted mule deer. Freshly re married, with a new child on the way, I didn’t have the time or funds for a long drawn out hunt this year. I was fortunate to draw a statewide deer tag in Montana. I can be at the SE border from my house in 9 hrs so that was the natural plan.

I arrived last Friday and to be completely honest, I was blown away by the numbers of deer I saw as soon as I crossed the border. Both road kill and on the hoof. To put it in perspective, in 2008 on our farm, the DNR issued us unlimited depredation doe tags on our farm in and effort to reduce numbers. That year, with archery equipmen, about 12 of us suggessfully tagged out on 122 deer in a 2 and a half square mile area. I mention this to clarify that I’m used to seeing a lot of deer.

Back to this years hunt. Arriving at my destination, I was super excited having seen so many deer and a good handful over 4 1/2 on the drive in. Now I had heard about the road hunting pressure, but I was completely blown away the first Mornings hunt. Electing to spend a little time behind the wheel familiarizing ourselves with the country before wading in we saw lots of deer......and lots of orange. The highway we drove in on and didn’t pass another car for 5 min was littered with trucks pulled off the sides. Folks were even parking in the middle of the highway standing over their hoods to glass. Trucks would roll to a stop while a blur of orange jumped out and hopped the fence in hot pursuit of venison. I guess I’d been warned, but didn’t really believe it would be that way. We attempted one stalk on a solid 150” deer only to have it blown out of the country by screeching tires and slamming doors. Saw a couple other nice bucks far away, but they were on private.

After about 2 hrs of this, I’d had enough. We found a large tract of rugged blm that connected to several other tracts. We hiked in 3.5 miles and located a good group of about 15 mulies working there way back up a draw about 1000 yards off. Mostly does with 3 dinks in the group. My buddy who was just along for the experience asked what I wanted to do. With time constraints back home and looking around at the soundless, endless beautiful place we were in, I told him; “after this am, it seems foolish to pass on something now I’d shoot the last day”. He agreed. We spent the next 2 hours working the draw with the wind in our favor going from 1000 yards off to settling on a well hidden knob 150 yards from the group of the bedded deer. When they got up, the shot was easy. Walking up, the bucks antlers were small, but the pride I felt inside and the experience we’d just had were as big as the 193” non typical that hangs on my wall back home. We’d come, put in the effort, did it the right way and witnessed some of the most beautiful country and wildlife behavior I’d ever seen. We packed him up and headed for the truck 3.5 mIke’s back. Upon arriving shortly after dark, my buddy slaps my on the chest and says “just listen”. We go silent.....and that’s it, that’s the beauty...nothing. Not a motor to be heard, no back up alarms, no airplanes, trains....absolutely nothing but the stars and the sky. “This is what its about” he says, and I couldn’t agree more.

I’m sorry to drag this out so long. I guess my point is I understand the frustrations of lack of management for bigger deer, but at the same time, you all have no idea how much I appreciate the opportunity to come to your great state and experience this. That deers horns won’t be going to the taxidermist, but my growing family will enjoy consuming that deer and it will help sustain my family on wild meat another year. The opportunity and experience are a trophy that will never go away in my mind or heart.

 

[onpoint]

Watching this conversation has been interesting as well as disheartening.
As a cheap seat technician for MFWP for thirty plus years, I can tell you that there is discussion within the dept about status quo issues among the rank and file.
There are those of us inside the dept. that bust(ed) our asses and stood (and do stand) up to the managers - mid, upper, and UPPERMOST level. But we were/are few.
From my perspective, very little talk of any substance regarding real change - usually just reactive crap trying to address issues already created or too long ignored.
And change is a boogeyman not often addressed, outside of change in order to make life (internally) easier.
The WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME PAGE mentality is staggering. Speaking internally against the department position is a big no-no. Cost me a couple $1000 in legal fees and a good chunk of my reputation (even though the dept. actually carried through with "remedying" the very situation I railed against...) some years back. I won that battle but the war continued on, a no win situation..........
I more left MFWP because I needed to and could, than "retired off into the sunset".

And the current leadership will not help the situation(s) one bit.

There is only one way things will ever actually change - guess what that way is. Good luck to us all.

But you can still kill a bull in MT, Buzz. One's quarters are hangin' in the garage as I type this. But yeah, your home state's fish and wildlife resource management faces some real problems.

 

[BuzzH]

onpoint,

I know you can still kill elk in Montana, I can too...just got tired of feeling guilty about it when I did. Not much joy to be found in killing the last buffalo.

 

[antlerradar]

Outlaw99. Glad you enjoyed your time in Montana.
Take it form a guy that has hunted SE Montana for 40 years. It is not just the quality of deer that has fallen in the last 20 to 25 years. The experience trophy has tarnished considerably also. It is past time for a good cleaning or that trophy too will become blacked and unrecognizable .

 

[matt0550]

You should thank every one of them , 70% of the Fwp budget comes from nonresident license sales

I had no idea it was that high a percentage of the OP budget! Being an out of state hunter, I am still in favor of paying more IF the State you are hunting does its job and manages, creates/maintains access programs and keeps the residents made whole. So when the Montana raises the license fee next year, I will pay it with a smile knowing that the money is well spent and it is helping to operate one of the best hunter access programs in existence. And for the record I make a pretty humble income - for some, $1000 spent on a license would be no big deal, for me its ALOT of dough.

 

[Outlaw99]

Outlaw99. Glad you enjoyed your time in Montana.
Take it form a guy that has hunted SE Montana for 40 years. It is not just the quality of deer that has fallen in the last 20 to 25 years. The experience trophy has tarnished considerably also. It is past time for a good cleaning or that trophy too will become blacked and unrecognizable .

I couldn’t agree more. It reminded me of our shotgun season back home. Blaze orange and pickups everywhere Lol. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not here to judge anyone’s legal methods of hunting, but man, I’ve never been so happy to walk....and keep walking..

 

[HighWildFree]

Well if you two old timers want to lay some knowledge down on finding elk I'm all ears. I've tried that last 3 seasons to find a bull on public land in region 2 during rifle and never saw a legal animal across something like 60 days of hunting...

I had a conversation with an FWP manager once about not wanting to create any trophy trout fisheries because the demand and expectation was something they felt they could not consistently achieve at a cost to opportunity (Henry's Lake is ID is a good example as to how burdensome trophy fisheries can be for managers). I wonder if that is some of the concern that by starting down what they see as the "trophy management" path they it will only get more restrictive and end up like the SW states were you only draw an elk tag every few years.

I know that they drive home "opportunity" but that opportunity is pretty worthless if I'm not seeing any legal elk or only finding 2 1/2 deer.

Any thoughts as to how we can start moving the needle on this topic

 

[antlerradar]

I couldn’t agree more. It reminded me of our shotgun season back home. Blaze orange and pickups everywhere Lol. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not here to judge anyone’s legal methods of hunting, but man, I’ve never been so happy to walk....and keep walking..

When you need to hike in 3+ miles and the trophy is a two point buck and a good experience we may just be getting close to that rock bottom Buzz talks about on Public land.

 

[8andcounting]

When you need to hike in 3+ miles and the trophy is a two point buck and a good experience we may just be getting close to that rock bottom Buzz talks about on Public land.

Kinda my thought .....

 

[mdunc8]

If y’all think it’s tough to shoot a mature deer in eastern Montana or bull on public in the mountains, try finding a decent Christmas tree within 45 minutes of Bozeman. Unlimited tags at work again...

 

[The Hedgehog]

If y’all think it’s tough to shoot a mature deer in eastern Montana or bull on public in the mountains, try finding a decent Christmas tree within 45 minutes of Bozeman. Unlimited tags at work again...

This is real! Finding the killer tree is as tough as The big buck and there’s no shortage of boot tracks everywhere, clearly looking for the same thing. Last 2 elk hunting trips I’ve been looking the last mile out in the trails - nothing but shit Charlie Brown trees. Might have to poach one off Ted Turners or maybe the honey hole - Triple Tree doctors yards..

 

[EYJONAS!]

I will say this is one played out topic no doubt but it has been great to read and see some actual structure from both sides coming in on this one. Very interesting read, I guess now we got another 10 months to see if fwp makes any changes which I doubt and it'll take years to see any benefits or "upswings" and in 12 months we'll be having the same conversation. Mark your calendars.

@Greenhorn sorry to hear about your Christmas tree struggles. I'd just go hit one of the 300 landscapers shops or nursery rows and just top one..... they're pretty decent. Or hit Yellowstone and quit being a pussy about it.

 

[mtmuley]

Saw some awesome Christmas trees. Secret spot though. mtmuley

 

[joelweb]

I agree with a lot of the points made here, and I want to throw out yet another angle on this: I don't think most units in Montana have the trophy potential of units in other western states. The only Montana hunting districts where a trophy tag can offer you a good opportunity at a 180"+ buck are hunting districts 261, 262, and 270--all units touching each other in the Bitterroot. I'm saying this because everyone already knows it.

Very limited hunting districts like 300, 312, 324, and 652 don't produce the big boys, and a 160 inch deer is a nice one. I'd even argue that 300 and 312 are pitiful even with trophy management. Sure, the occasional 180" buck turns up, but I feel like I have just as good of a chance of killing a big boy in a general unit as I would in these limited units. That's not because of age structure, it is because the deer don't have the potential to become really big, in general. What these hunts do offer is an opportunity to look over a lot more mature deer and to hunt without competition. I also don't think there is anything wrong with the overall deer population in eastern Montana. The age structure is generally on the young side, however. I do agree that the population is way down on the western side of the state and something should be done about it. With that said, there are some older deer on the west side in some of the more remote units if you are willing to work for one.

 

[Oak]

Top a 60’er? Cutting a 10’er is no different than shooting a 2.5 year old 4x4.

 

[EYJONAS!]

I agree with a lot of the points made here, and I want to throw out yet another angle on this: I don't think most units in Montana have the trophy potential of units in other western states. The only Montana hunting districts where a trophy tag can offer you a good opportunity at a 180"+ buck are hunting districts 261, 262, and 270--all units touching each other in the Bitterroot. I'm saying this because everyone already knows it.

Very limited hunting districts like 300, 312, 324, and 652 don't produce the big boys, and a 160 inch deer is a nice one. I'd even argue that 300 and 312 are pitiful even with trophy management. Sure, the occasional 180" buck turns up, but I feel like I have just as good of a chance of killing a big boy in a general unit as I would in these limited units. That's not because of age structure, it is because the deer don't have the potential to become really big, in general. What these hunts do offer is an opportunity to look over a lot more mature deer and to hunt without competition. I also don't think there is anything wrong with the overall deer population in eastern Montana. The age structure is generally on the young side, however. I do agree that the population is way down on the western side of the state and something should be done about it. With that said, there are some older deer on the west side in some of the more remote units if you are willing to work for one.

I'll disagree, if you don't think that Montana has the potential or genetics to produce deer 180+ your crazy. Some areas are better than others but we have the genetics. 99.99999 percent of the bucks that have the genetics never live to age to showcase their potential.

 

[Big Fin]

The tree struggle is real. I know of a domestic 15' Blue Spruce that is now a 3' stump. Pissed off homeowner is offering a reward. No, not Mrs. Fin.