Montana mule deer rant

[Tlrussell]

I'm looking at the regs now with the all the muley B tags for Region 7. Why are people out there still shooting so many public land does with such a dramatic decline occurring? Seems like it can't be news to anyone these days.

First hand experience here. Nice folks from Northern California. Super stoked to see any deer beyond a spike. “We have 9 tags to fill”, my response, you don’t have to fill them. Confused look from the guy. These people were in heaven because they didn’t feel like criminals. Sad think is, if they had 4 tags they would be just as happy.

On another note, I have a buddy in eastern Montana. This year, “We have no deer”, saw 1 buck in two days of antelope hunting. No where near public land. Can still buy muley and whitetail doe tags over the counter

 

[rogerthat]

If your a game agency and the way you are managing is by issuing tags and letting the hunters decide if they should fill them or not, why do you need employees?

It’s not the hunters job to decide in the moment if it’s the right decision for the management of that game species whether they harvest.

 

[Flynarrow]

Make coyote hunting with limited tags only. That way hunters would be chomping to buy as many and kill as many as possible....just a joke but it ironic hunters look at every season or every predator or whatever the problem trying hard to avoid looking at themselves. It would be hard to kill enough coyotes to make a huge difference but an AZ bio I know was involved in very localized targeting coyotes with helicopter a week before antelope fawn drop and had a significant improvement in antelope fawn survival. Predators however have been killing mule deer for thousands of years and there was still likely more deer then. So what is the difference now?

 

[antlerradar]

This scenario, and @antlerradar 's story in the post above, seem to match the opinions of some of the experts in the field. I believe it was Jim Heffelfinger that talked directly about the impact of predators on Mule Deer. My apologies for essentially regurgitating other peoples work/opinions. But Jim stated that you have to really hit predators intensely, in a small, localized area to really have any measurable positive impact on fawn survival or adult populations. He stated even on a surface area the size of hunting unit, it would be nearly impossible to hit predators enough to have a major impact. It's extremely expensive and difficult, and he felt that the money and effort it would take to do such a thing, would be better spent towards habitat work and putting more "groceries" on the landscape.

I'm not discounting either of your accounts, it just seems that the experts I've heard discuss the matter, don't seem to lay as much validity to predation control being a significant factor in Mule deer populations in an area the size of the eastern half of MT.

Since these aren't my own thoughts, I can't really argue for or against, but I do tend to trust the credible mule deer biologists.

All you need is 100 dollar coyotes.

 

[antlerradar]

If I had to guess, I would say that for the last two springs in Montana, the lack of grass for cover and nutrients for the mom would be the biggest issues for fawn recruitment that certainly tilt the scales towards predators.

Unless you’re living on a wildlife refuge, the habitat conditions over the last two years are about the worst I’ve ever seen. Doesn’t seem like there’s hardly any grass left out there. We’ve obviously had droughts before but I don’t believe we maximized the grazing AUMs like we currently are. The data on numbers of cattle supports that.

The number of breeding age cattle that have went through the sale yard in Miles City the last few years would say other wise.

 

[antlerradar]

If your a game agency and the way you are managing is by issuing tags and letting the hunters decide if they should fill them or not, why do you need employees?

It’s not the hunters job to decide in the moment if it’s the right decision for the management of that game species whether they harvest.

FWP needs to take note of this, because this is something I hear more and more frequently.

 

[antlerradar]

I remember sitting in the yard with @antlerradar about 22 years ago, discussing many of these topics. The prescience of the conversation (largely on his part) is both striking and uncomfortable.

This is making me feel old and like a crabby old fart yelling stop shooting love struck bucks instead of keep off my grass.

Just yesterday I was telling the new guy some of our roadside adventure stories.

 

[TheJason]

This is making me feel old

Yes.

 

[antlerradar]

If I were king for a day, I’d go spend about three days with @antlerradar and we’d hash out a mule deer plan.

I hear a rummer that a Mule Deer advisory committee is in the future. I am going to do my best to be on that committee. Might be a long shot if FWP is monitoring Hunt Talk.

 

[antlerradar]

Yes.

You don't have to agree. @Greenhorn was making me feel young with his elk and now you go and hit me right up side the head with the reality bat.

 

[brocksw]

Yes.

 

[texwest44]

First hand experience here. Nice folks from Northern California. Super stoked to see any deer beyond a spike. “We have 9 tags to fill”, my response, you don’t have to fill them. Confused look from the guy. These people were in heaven because they didn’t feel like criminals. Sad think is, if they had 4 tags they would be just as happy.

On another note, I have a buddy in eastern Montana. This year, “We have no deer”, saw 1 buck in two days of antelope hunting. No where near public land. Can still buy muley and whitetail doe tags over the counter

I can't even get myself in the headspace of someone who would drive over a thousand miles just to wipe out a small herd of does. Even if numbers were amazing, why would anyone do that?? Plus, think of the expense. Those tags aren't exactly cheap, and the gas alone could get up near a thousand by the end of the trip. Food, lodging, etc. Thousands of dollars to gun down muley does... I'm suddenly picturing them as those folks in the 1800s who would take cross-country train rides to shoot wildlife for fun.

 

[TheJason]

Some of you get a little elitist about hunters driving to gun down muley does. Who $*)Q!#@$ cares if someone is willing or wants to. Stop looking down on them.

They are going to participate in the hunt, with the tags legally sold to them.

The problem is the tags being provided, it’s NOT the folks willing to buy them and use them.

The winter range migration elk hunts in Montana were wildly popular amongst hunters, knowing full well they were going to be part of a shooting range to kill elk coming out of the park or city of Gardiner. Even when the elk herd was passed the point of sustainably, folks filled every tag they could.

Is that on them, or is that on FWP for providing the opportunity.

 

[Tlrussell]

I can't even get myself in the headspace of someone who would drive over a thousand miles just to wipe out a small herd of does. Even if numbers were amazing, why would anyone do that?? Plus, think of the expense. Those tags aren't exactly cheap, and the gas alone could get up near a thousand by the end of the trip. Food, lodging, etc. Thousands of dollars to gun down muley does... I'm suddenly picturing them as those folks in the 1800s who would take cross-country train rides to shoot wildlife for fun.



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These were legitimately good people. I think their thought was ‘why would they sell the tags if it wasn’t ok to fill them’. It’s valuable to think about that for a bit. Pretty heavy.

 

[DFS]

I hope they filled every single one of them.

 

[Nick87]

I hope they filled every single one of them.

Question is and I think about this for around home here as well, when it gets so bad and tags go unsold what will they do manage for more deer or just up the price of tags knowing that some will buy no matter what?

 

[mtmuley]

Is that on them, or is that on FWP for providing the opportunity.

You know the answer to that. So do most of us here. But, the "birthright" to hammer dinks through the rut is legal too. The opportunity is provided. mtmuley

 

[peterk1234]

Take my sightings with a grain of salt since this is new hunting country for me. The amount of muley does I have encountered almost every time out has been nothing short of incredible. Yesterday we counted 40. Last time out was about 25. We are seeing bucks now that it is the rut, but I have nothing to compare to regarding size and mass. These sightings were in agriculture settings in south central part of the state. Prior to these two hunts I have been hunting in the woods. Every single time I would see at least a half dozen does while hunting among the trees. No bucks, but I would have expected that. Woods is a different ball game.

I was on BM property yesterday. Spoke with the landowner. The muleys have wiped out her crop. She has spoken to the local biologists about the problem and they seem to not believe her about the quantity of deer. Well, I have seen it firsthand, it's overrun.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the management strategy and what I am experiencing. I get limiting the taking of does, to a degree. I don't get the logic about taking big bucks. I would think they would encourage the taking of smaller/weaker bucks, instead of the mature bucks with prominent racks. Serious question, so please go easy on me. What is the theory?

 

[Tlrussell]

Some of you get a little elitist about hunters driving to gun down muley does. Who $*)Q!#@$ cares if someone is willing or wants to. Stop looking down on them.

They are going to participate in the hunt, with the tags legally sold to them.

The problem is the tags being provided, it’s NOT the folks willing to buy them and use them.

The winter range migration elk hunts in Montana were wildly popular amongst hunters, knowing full well they were going to be part of a shooting range to kill elk coming out of the park or city of Gardiner. Even when the elk herd was passed the point of sustainably, folks filled every tag they could.

Is that on them, or is that on FWP for providing the opportunity.

My point was, they intended to fill the tags they bought, no problem there, the number of tags is the issue. Mule deer rant thread right?!

 

[TheJason]

You know the answer to that. So do most of us here. But, the "birthright" to hammer dinks through the rut is legal too. The opportunity is provided. mtmuley

Yes, it absolutely was a rhetorical question.