Montana mule deer rant

[Bambistew]

Some of you get a little elitist about hunters driving to gun down muley does. Who $*)Q!#@$ cares if someone is willing or wants to. Stop looking down on them.

They are going to participate in the hunt, with the tags legally sold to them.

The problem is the tags being provided, it’s NOT the folks willing to buy them and use them.

The winter range migration elk hunts in Montana were wildly popular amongst hunters, knowing full well they were going to be part of a shooting range to kill elk coming out of the park or city of Gardiner. Even when the elk herd was passed the point of sustainably, folks filled every tag they could.

Is that on them, or is that on FWP for providing the opportunity.

How many times have we read on here about buying doe tags so no one else can fill it?

 

[8andcounting]

How many times have we read on here about buying doe tags so no one else can fill it?

That’s what I did . I should have bought more than 1 . Atleast 1 muley doe will make the winter

 

[MTGomer]

This is what you’re up against.


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This has gotten more, instead of less, stupid, as the morning has gone on. Surprising, I know.

 

[fowladdict]

This is what you’re up against.


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I wonder how many he is a baby daddy of.

 

[DFS]

Well that was a rabbit hole I shouldn’t have gone down.

 

[8andcounting]

That’s entire problem , morons like this that even if today there was muley doe tags available otc would buy as many as they could afford and shoot as many as possible it’s unbelievable really but that’s what we are up against

 

[RobertD]

People really think these deer are like beef cattle. Like the big stud buck does all the breeding. Anti-hunters and the anti-"trophy hunting" crowd often make similar arguments.

 

[brockel]

Well that was a rabbit hole I shouldn’t have gone down.

I had to do it too

 

[CountingCoo]

Why that is so hard to comprehend for some blows my mind.

Problem is that multiple studies have shown that culling "inferior" bucks has no effect on outcomes because does contribute the genes that define antler characteristics.

 

[Eric Albus]

That’s entire problem , morons like this that even if today there was muley doe tags available otc would buy as many as they could afford and shoot as many as possible it’s unbelievable really but that’s what we are up against

And then blame it on FWP for providing the tag. FWP shares culpability certainly, but they don’t “make you pull the trigger”. This is like blaming the beer for making me fat.

 

[Eric Albus]

Problem is that multiple studies have shown that culling "inferior" bucks has no effect on outcomes because does contribute the genes that define antler characteristics.

The only way “culling” helps is by reducing the number of bucks(i.e. competition/fighting/feed) helping younger superior antlered bucks to survive.

 

[FREAK]

I’m 30 min late To the spot this AM. Already 4 trucks in the pull off. Maybe tomorrow…

 

[antlerradar]

Problem is that multiple studies have shown that culling "inferior" bucks has no effect on outcomes because does contribute the genes that define antler characteristics.

There are more to the genes of big antlers than just antler genetics. For example there are studies that show that a fawn with a good start will out preform other deer when it comes to growing antlers later in life. That good start is often related to milk production if the doe and milk production is genetic.

 

[Nick87]

There are more to the genes of big antlers than just antler genetics. For example there are studies that show that a fawn with a good start will out preform other deer when it comes to growing antlers later in life. That good start is often related to milk production in the doe and milk production is genetic.

That's very interesting.

 

[RobertD]

There are more to the genes of big antlers than just antler genetics. For example there are studies that show that a fawn with a good start will out preform other deer when it comes to growing antlers later in life. That good start is often related to milk production in the doe and milk production is genetic.

What are your thoughts/observations on soil type influencing antler growth and size?

Obviously you've got genetics from each parent, a bunch of different environmental factors, but my anecdotal "take" (so based on N Fla and S Ga WTs) is that soil type seems to be a major factor in antler growth.

I could get more detailed, but in short I can point to differences within individual counties that seem to imply a strong correlation. At risk of derailing the thread, any thoughts on that?

 

[brocksw]

Dr. Kevin Monteith's study on antler growth. Almost all determined by health of the doe. Fat momma does make big bucks, both in physical size and antler growth. Genetic potential is then fulfilled, or not, by nutrition throughout that bucks life.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241276845_Effects_of_harvest_culture_and_climate_on_trends_in_size_of_horn-like_structures_in_trophy_ungulates

 

[SAJ-99]

And then blame it on FWP for providing the tag. FWP shares culpability certainly, but they don’t “make you pull the trigger”. This is like blaming the beer for making me fat.

The only way you are going to reduce harvest is to reduce tags. If you are relying on hunters to "eat" tag soup in the name of the resource, you are going to be disappointed.

In 8 days hunting MT last week, I talked to 12 resident hunters and 10 of them had already filled their tag. One hadn't gone out yet. A few also had bought MD Doe B tags. I also heard the comment "I still have two weeks" a few times. Also, when you force a NR to pay $700 for the tag, there is a psychological pressure to fill it. The closer to the end of the hunt, the more likely the hunter is to shoot anything. I presume that desire is different when for a resident that only pays $20.

I ate my tag and only had one fleeting opportunity at a respectable buck.

 

[MTTW]

And then blame it on FWP for providing the tag. FWP shares culpability certainly, but they don’t “make you pull the trigger”. This is like blaming the beer for making me fat.

I think it is like paying a money manager to manage your fortune and have them screw you blind. Only I can't fire these guys.

 

[mtlilguy]

What are your thoughts/observations on soil type influencing antler growth and size?

Obviously you've got genetics from each parent, a bunch of different environmental factors, but my anecdotal "take" (so based on N Fla and S Ga WTs) is that soil type seems to be a major factor in antler growth.

I could get more detailed, but in short I can point to differences within individual counties that seem to imply a strong correlation. At risk of derailing the thread, any thoughts on that?

Are you thinking soil type differences in relation to the habitat quality that can/can't grow there? Or soil type differences in relation to the minerals each has/lacks?

I think both could be part of the equation to some degree. At the county vs county scale, I think habitat quality provided by some soil types and not others would be a far greater factor than the actual macro/micro nutrients that are transferred through plants or by directly ingesting soil.

 

[brocksw]

That good start is often related to milk production in the doe and milk production is genetic.

Do you have a link to the study?

My understanding from the studies I've read is that genetics only play a secondary role in body mass and antler growth. Yes the genetics must be there, but even if they are, poor nutrition (in utero) will overrule any genetics. Milk production is based almost soley on nutrition. Genetics cant overrule poor nutrition for milk production because the nutrients MUST be there for the milk to meet the nutritional requirements of a nursing doe and the fawn.

This would highlight why drought has such a negative impact on fawn recruitment.

If the groceries aren't there, all other factors are essentially moot. This was proven in Dr. Kevin Monteith's decade long studies on bighorn sheep and South Dakota deer via a common garden experiment.