Montana mule deer rant

[Bambistew]

The CO argument of "it isn't what it once was," is sorta misleading, isn't it? I think many who say that, are talking a specific 6-8 year window in time in the last 30 years. CO went full draw in our lifetime, I think in 1990 or 91? It wasn't until the late 90s or early 2000s that it got really good in many areas. A massive winter kill in 2007/08 ended the glory in many areas, just as the results of limited draw tags and high B to D ratios peaked. It takes 8-12 years to grow a robust age structure. I've only hunted CO maybe a dozen times since 2002, but I have friends and know a few old timers that hunted it through the 70-90s and saw it destroyed through OTC hunting and hunter number increases and then rejuvenated by the draw. You are right there aren't as many big bucks as there was in that short period of time, and there never will be unless they increase the B to D objectives, thus reduce tags. Rut or no rut.

I hunted the Gunnison Basin every year from 2002 -2008 a few of those years the the B to D ratio was like 55-60:100. We hunted 3rd season when it was the first week-10 days of Nov. The bucks were well into the rut by then. Then the winter hit in 2007, and it all came crashing down. DOW reduced the objective to 35-40 bucks per 100 does. It was stupid how many big deer you'd see a DAY. You'd see at least 1-2 180 class bucks a day, and 1-2 gaggers in a week. I saw more big deer in a week in CO that I'd seen in a lifetime in MT. I'll never forget a few bucks I saw. I regret not having a good camera back then. I saw a couple legit 200-205 NET typical and one NT that was over 250. State record type deer for MT.

The worst area in CO, today, has higher post hunt B to D ratios than almost every area in MT, maybe all, but we'll never know because MT won't collect the data. You can't have big deer if they aren't allowed to exist. Some OTC units in MT have single digit ratios, as in 5-7 bucks per 100 does.

Given the choice between a OTC in MT or left over tag in CO. The odds of killing a big deer are far in favor of CO vs MT.

I honestly wish they would manage deer like they do elk in UT. I can't believe I said that, but manage animals for a certain average age of harvest. That's the only way to have a robust age structure, and have some nice bucks around. This would be a great place for an NGO to step in and offer up some data collection.

 

[SAJ-99]

Montana FWP get's a SOLID F for mule deer management.

They'll continue to "manage" by politics, excuses, and fear of standing ground against all those that are so resistant to any meaningful changes.

FWP will continue to waste valuable time putting band-aid on severed limbs. CWD, familty tradition "heritage" , and terrible data will continue to be "crutches".

MT needs to start by:

1) Manage deer and elk entirely different, starting with the connected general season dates. Deer are not elk.
2) MANAGE by units, individually.
3) CHANGE THE GENERAL SEASON DATES to not allow any rifle hunting any time in NOVEMBER.

Just tell them to manage mule deer like they manage antelope.

 

[FREAK]

Until some enterprising anti hunting group positions to get Mule Deer listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act. If you can do it with prairie dogs, you could do it with mule deer.

Let’s not give ‘em any bright ideas now…

 

[Straight Arrow]

get Mule Deer listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act

By Hunting District: Antlered Mule Deer ESA protected; antlerless by permit only. No shoulder seasons.

 

[Schaaf]

I heard an interesting perspective from a native Montanan here at work. He is firmly in the opportunity side, mentioned the Hunting heritage/tradition. "Freedom is easy to lose and hard to get back". His take is that we need to keep hunters on the landscape, any and all voluntary reductions in hunters feeds into the anti-hunting hand, effectively doing their job for them. The more hunters we can retain the higher likelihood that hunting continues as a worthwhile endeavor that society as a whole can accept.

Meh, I call BS on that. I’ve only ever seen those people he references show up to any public meeting, the state legislature, or public comment when there’s a proposal to increase a deer license above $12. Quite frankly, the only place I see the pro opportunity sentiment carry any weight is in the Facebook comment sections.

I bet I know which side of the mule deer opportunity issue the gal that shot the husky sits on.

 

[Irrelevant]

Meh, I call BS on that. I’ve only ever seen those people he references show up to any public meeting, the state legislature, or public comment when there’s a proposal to increase a deer license above $12. Quite frankly, the only place I see the pro opportunity sentiment carry any weight is in the Facebook comment sections.

I bet I know which side of the mule deer opportunity issue the gal that shot the husky sits on.

I hear what you're saying, but that isn't his point. It's not about showing up for conservation, it's about perpetuating hunting. By shear numbers the more that are out there the more people can associate with it, the less likely they'll vote to eliminate it.

Again, this isn't my take, but I think it has some value

 

[DFS]

I hear what you're saying, but that isn't his point. It's not about showing up for conservation, it's about perpetuating hunting. By shear numbers the more that are out there the more people can associate with it, the less likely they'll vote to eliminate it.

Again, this isn't my take, but I think it has some value

I could see this working the opposite, it gets hard for me to even care about the health of the herd. I would love to see some management come from Montana, but at this point I am hoping for a bad winter to get rid of the remaining deer. It’s such a waste of a valuable resource and it gets tough to watch the hunters come in that don’t value mule deer. Hunter behavior is bad and the more we fight for less and less resource the worse it gets. There is no quality of hunt anymore. Trying to reason with the fwp is like beating your head off the wall. Very depressing as a sportsman who cares about a resource. People will get burnt out and those are the people that you need, not the dipshits that want to blast something out of the window of their pickup on thanksgiving.

 

[Irrelevant]

I could see this working the opposite, it gets hard for me to even care about the health of the herd. I would love to see some management come from Montana, but at this point I am hoping for a bad winter to get rid of the remaining deer. It’s such a waste of a valuable resource and it gets tough to watch the hunters come in that don’t value mule deer. Hunter behavior is bad and the more we fight for less and less resource the worse it gets. There is no quality of hunt anymore. Trying to reason with the fwp is like beating your head off the wall. Very depressing as a sportsman who cares about a resource. People will get burnt out and those are the people that you need, not the dipshits that want to blast something out of the window of their pickup on thanksgiving.

That was similar to my rebuttal. Why would anyone want to keep doing something that isn't fun? Here in WA hunting is WAY overcrowded, to the point it can be hard to find parking spaces and you routinely see more hunters than deer. My argument is that is more likely to lead to people quitting hunting, the limiting the #s to something reasonable, where every that draws can at least have a good enjoyable hunt even if they aren't successful. Again, I'm not even talking about wildlife, just hunting and hunters.

 

[SAJ-99]

I hear what you're saying, but that isn't his point. It's not about showing up for conservation, it's about perpetuating hunting. By shear numbers the more that are out there the more people can associate with it, the less likely they'll vote to eliminate it.

Again, this isn't my take, but I think it has some value

Don't Americans generally approve of hunting by like 80%? Most of the time I'm in the camp that there are too many hunters (along the lines of your comment on finding a parking spot at the trailhead). Maybe there are more bikers or rock climbers or some other groups in WA?

 

[Irrelevant]

Don't Americans generally approve of hunting by like 80%? Most of the time I'm in the camp that there are too many hunters (along the lines of your comment on finding a parking spot at the trailhead). Maybe there are more bikers or rock climbers or some other groups in WA?

If 80% is accurate it's skewed by the midwest. No way WA has 80% approval.

 

[SAJ-99]

If 80% is accurate it's skewed by the midwest. No way WA has 80% approval.

Your guess is way better than mine. WA sold 700k licenses last year, but it hard to say if that is because of lack of interest, crappy hunting, or some combination of both.

 

[Eric Albus]

This is my worry. Maybe they have data to show the population is not crashing and I'm not aware of that data. I could care less about buck scores or sizes. I am interested in a diverse age class and a robust number of deer, post-hunt, on accessible lands. Having asked for that management outcome for many years, experience tells me you are quickly labeled by most resident hunters as "A trophy hunter" when advocating for such.

This is what baffles me….why do we shoot any mule deer does on accessible lands???

The ONLY time a doe or cow should be killed on accessible land is when numbers are so grossly over objective it’s harmful to the habitat.
End of this discussion.

 

[300stw]

how many current biologists, game managers, dept heads, have faced dwindling deer populations at the current pace?

how many enacted or were part of enacted any new rules that showed a complete reversal of the situation?

IF THERE ARE ANY OF THESE GUYS ALIVE, get them in management, decision making positions,

how many of our current fish and game employees , start young move up thru the ranks, end up in managers positions, and never go outside the box to come up with solutions, i can name a bunch on the eastern side of the state,,,,,,

 

[mtmuley]

I saw my first western MT mule deer buck last week, with a doe. It looked like it could have been a 4x, but if so, it's forks were almost undetectable to the human eye. maybe 16" outside, no mass. The doe was his.

I did see a 180+ not far off the bitterroot river, while looking at some of the limited quota deer area 2 weeks back.

Surprised he was still alive. mtmuley

 

[WanderWoman]

Followed immediately by “can’t eat the the horns anyways”

I’ll probably regret wading into this, but..

Tag numbers aside, is there really something wrong with someone harvesting a deer for meat/experience vs. pursuing a trophy or mature buck? And who are we to judge those people?

Three years of drought will put a hurting on mule deer populations but even when they’re booming it’s not realistic to expect that every buck deer harvested will be a mature buck.

People hunt for a variety of reasons; having conversations about ways to improve the situation is great but it’s good to remember that.

 

[DFS]

I don’t think many care if you shoot a dink. What I see is management practices that aren’t sustainable and a declining mule deer population. We now have had a population crash and a game agency that doesn’t have a handle on it or simply doesn’t care. The current management will not allow the population to rebound on public and the decline continues. This always circles back to trophy quality. The trophy quality sucks and is mainly gone. We now have a population issue, the deer are gone you can’t even discuss trophy quality when there are no deer.

 

[huntin24/7]

I’ll probably regret wading into this, but..

Tag numbers aside, is there really something wrong with someone harvesting a deer for meat/experience vs. pursuing a trophy or mature buck? And who are we to judge those people?

Three years of drought will put a hurting on mule deer populations but even when they’re booming it’s not realistic to expect that every buck deer harvested will be a mature buck.

People hunt for a variety of reasons; having conversations about ways to improve the situation is great but it’s good to remember that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of what you’re saying. And I personally have never alluded to there being anything wrong with that. I haven’t put down anyone for shooting a small buck and never will. Most anyone on here that says something interpreted as being that way isn’t directing anything toward an individual for shooting a small buck. They’re upset with management styles that allow everyone to easily do that leading to poor numbers, age structure, and overall herd health. Hopefully this explanation makes sense. Best of luck to you in your hunts.

 

[Schaaf]

I’ll probably regret wading into this, but..

Tag numbers aside, is there really something wrong with someone harvesting a deer for meat/experience vs. pursuing a trophy or mature buck? And who are we to judge those people?

Three years of drought will put a hurting on mule deer populations but even when they’re booming it’s not realistic to expect that every buck deer harvested will be a mature buck.

People hunt for a variety of reasons; having conversations about ways to improve the situation is great but it’s good to remember that.

I don’t believe anyone in this thread has vilified someone for harvesting a younger deer simply for the meat or experience.

What the vast majority of posters in this thread would like to see is a healthy and diverse age class of mule deer on accessible lands and an agency that is quicker to respond to issues such as drought even if the general public might get upset.

 

[WanderWoman]

When I've listened to biologists like Kevin Monteith and his crew, talk about the Mule deer populations of the past, they really discount predators as being much of a factor in overall populations.

They talk about this on the meateater podcast in detail. They attribute the "groceries" and other environmental factors to be the larger reasons populations were doing so well. Perhaps they are wrong, but I've yet to hear anyone more qualified than these guys, discuss this matter.

Ep. 162: Landscape of Fear | MeatEater Podcasts

Steven Rinella talks with Dr. Kevin Monteith, Dr. Matt Kaufmann, Jared Oakleaf, and Janis Putelis.Subjects discussed: genetics that rewrite our understanding of animals; big game guts; learning how to migrate; who pays for wildlife research?; brain scrambling, extreme sports, and wildlife capture...

www.themeateater.com

There are not many presently outside of these guys (and Jim Heffelfinger) that have more combined knowledge of deer. I’d heed what they say. This was my favorite ME podcast episode.

 

[brockel]

I’ll probably regret wading into this, but..

Tag numbers aside, is there really something wrong with someone harvesting a deer for meat/experience vs. pursuing a trophy or mature buck? And who are we to judge those people?

Three years of drought will put a hurting on mule deer populations but even when they’re booming it’s not realistic to expect that every buck deer harvested will be a mature buck.

People hunt for a variety of reasons; having conversations about ways to improve the situation is great but it’s good to remember that.

Shoot whatever buck makes you happy. My complaints are on fwp letting the public land does be piss pounded year after year. There should be no doe tags valid for public land unless deer numbers are over objective. BMA should be left up to landowner discretion on whether they want does shot or not.