Montana mule deer rant

[TOGIE]

Colorado is walking a fine line,they are one big snow storm from ending their better bucks. Late season dates and high powered rifles do not go together. A week season vs 5 weeks of the entire rut isn’t comparable though. Montana does not let up no matter what deer numbers are or what Mother Nature is doing. I think what has been lost in many of these threads is trophy quality vs. deer numbers. Trophy quality in Montana was mainly gone many years ago, now the deer are gone too. Mule deer are going the way of the dodo birds on public at least.

there are areas where colorado is walking a fine line, sure, some DAUs probably. mostly related to CWD management tho.

but overall, we have very limited rifle doe hunting and by and large very limited rifle rut hunting and zero general tags. you can choose one 9 day, 7 day, or 5 day rifle season.

the 3rd season dates getting pushed closer to early rut than pre rut probably is where things ought to be re thought. there's a shit ton of 3rd season tags available. but still, the doe hunting is quite limited and when they shifted that later they also cut 2 days off the season. I think it was some biologist/game manager i heard on a meateater podcast that once said "one of the primary ways we can control harvest success is with season length"

these past two years it seems, from my anecdotal experience, these 3rd seasons hunts still seem to have more bigger bucks in lonely hidey holes than you'd think this close to the rut. i suspect our only antler restriction being a 5" minimum is also of benefit, lots of people don't pass on much, including myself, leaving a lot of good bucks alive.

overall, minus some exceptions, i'm more worried about habitat, migration corridors, and disease for colorado mule deer than too much hunting.

i like to think montana could nearly fix their problem if they theoretically adopted our exact mule deer season structure.

 

[DFS]

As hard as it is for some of you to hear, mule deer should not be hunted with a high powered rifle during the rut in any state. Mule deer are declining throughout the west and we aren’t doing a dang thing to help them. I agree with @rogerthat the population crashed likely due to drought, mtfwp doesn’t have a clue, numbers never recovered after 2012 with bad winters and they won’t recover after this year. The decline will continue, this is the best year of hunting in Montana you will ever see. A good friend of mine and landowner took note of the decline and not a single deer will be shot off his place this year. His place will recover, that is not happening on public land. Public land mule deer numbers won’t recover because hunters and mtfwp wont let them.

 

[TOGIE]

As hard as it is for some of you to hear, mule deer should not be hunted with a high powered rifle during the rut in any state.

yes and no.

here is a buck tag you can get in colorado. the tag is good for 4 units.

• 2nd rifle, 9 day season, pre rut: 950 tags
• 3rd rifle, 7 day hunt, pre rut/early rut: 800 tags
• 4th rifle, 5 day hunt, rut: 50 tags

when you talk about limited rifle rut hunting, that's pretty dang limited if you ask me.

rut hunting with a rifle, if managed properly can be just fine IMO. i'm not worried about those 50 tags that run about a 50% success rate during the rut across 4 units being a huge problem.

 

[NDGuy]

Gotta love Montana View attachment 251080

Did that poor thing pull through?

 

[DFS]

yes and no.

here is a buck tag you can get in colorado. the tag is good for 4 units.

• 2nd rifle, 9 day season, pre rut: 950 tags
• 3rd rifle, 7 day hunt, pre rut/early rut: 800 tags
• 4th rifle, 5 day hunt, rut: 50 tags

when you talk about limited rifle rut hunting, that's pretty dang limited if you ask me.

rut hunting with a rifle, if managed properly can be just fine IMO. i'm not worried about those 50 tags that run about a 50% success rate during the rut across 4 units being a huge problem.

Those 800 3rd season tags aren’t pre-rut they are right in the middle of it. I would be a little concerned about those. Luckily it’s an experiment that you will get to watch first hand. Maybe I’m wrong what the outcome will be.

 

[rogerthat]

Those 800 3rd season tags aren’t pre-rut they are right in the middle of it. I would be a little concerned about those. Luckily it’s an experiment that you will get to watch first hand. Maybe I’m wrong what the outcome will be.

Lol. Your wrong? Big bucks are gone in Colorado. 180” bucks aren’t truly big mule deer and there are only a fraction of those left in each of the units compared to 10 years ago. Oh but now I have said it! I’m a “trophy” hunter, no one cares what I have to say right?

Fact is 3rd season got shifted to 4th season dates. Togie just layed it out clearly. Now you have 800 tags when you had 50. The bucks are gone for the most part in Colorado. Those are the facts. I won’t be hunting that state again until they fix their season dates.

 

[SAJ-99]

I won’t be hunting that state again until they fix their season dates.

Where are you planning to hunt? asking for a friend...

 

[rogerthat]

I will start a new thread. Montana ain’t even close to Colorado talking mule deer. Like Togie said they don’t shoot their does and their tags are limited. Still depressing for a selective hunter to see the last bastion of big bucks get smoked.

 

[rogerthat]

Where are you planning to hunt? asking for a friend...

Running out of options aren’t I?

 

[TOGIE]

i won't argue colorado isn't what it used to be, not that i have much frame of reference having started hunting only 6 years ago. but the deer numbers don't lie, nor do dropping tag allocations in many DAUs over the years.

we haven't had such a late 3rd season for very long, at all. the DAUs that truly aren't what they used to be are related to scorched earth CWD management from what i can tell. it takes more than 3 years worth of a late 3rd rifle to destroy everything. maybe i'm wrong.

peak rut is hard to really determine anyway and more extensive hunting pressure will tend to change deer activity during the rut. hunting mule deer during third season with many other deer hunters, the otc bull hunters, and generous cow tag hunters means you won't be seeing the same type of day time rut activity than you would during the same time frame during 4th season a few years back when everything is more limited.

don't get me wrong, the amount of tags issued during these much later third season hunts i agree is likely not a good place to be. but i've yet to see so called peak rut activity during the current 3rd season.

i think there is appetite to rethink the current BGSS during some future planning sessions, luckily they do revisit it every 5 years.

i think the commission and cpw staff will listen to heavy public comment about the 3rd season dates if people express genuine concern. people hate thanksgiving 4th season too, i can only imagine that means things could be shifted earlier again.

 

[SAJ-99]

Running out of options aren’t I?

Here is an idea...

Mule Deer Can Now Be Hunted in Interior Alaska

Should Alaksans be hunting mule deer?

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[rogerthat]

i won't argue colorado isn't what it used to be, not that i have much frame of reference having started hunting only 6 years ago. but the deer numbers don't lie, nor do dropping tag allocations in many DAUs over the years.

we haven't had such a late 3rd season for very long, at all. the DAUs that truly aren't what they used to be are related to scorched earth CWD management from what i can tell. it takes more than 3 years worth of a late 3rd rifle to destroy everything. maybe i'm wrong.

peak rut is hard to really determine anyway and more extensive hunting pressure will tend to change deer activity during the rut. hunting mule deer during third season with many other deer hunters, the otc bull hunters, and generous cow tag hunters means you won't be seeing the same type of day time rut activity than you would during the same time frame during 4th season a few years back when everything is more limited.

don't get me wrong, the amount of tags issued during these much later third season hunts i agree is likely not a good place to be. but i've yet to see so called peak rut activity during the current 3rd season.

i think there is appetite to rethink the current BGSS during some future planning sessions, luckily they do revisit it every 5 years.

i think the commission and cpw staff will listen to heavy public comment about the 3rd season dates if people express genuine concern. people hate thanksgiving 4th season too, i can only imagine that means things could be shifted earlier again.

Where I was hunting 3rd season the snow was deep enough most deer were down on winter range and not in the cover in my honey holes like they should be during a 3rd season. The hunt went like this - “oh there’s a buck” looking thru spotter. Bam! “Oh crap he just got shot!” This must have happened 50 times. It was as ugly of a hunt as they get. I saw one mature buck that made it through the season out on private.

 

[TOGIE]

Where I was hunting 3rd season the snow was deep enough most deer were down on winter range and not in the cover in my honey holes like they should be during a 3rd season. The hunt went like this - “oh there’s a buck” looking thru spotter. Bam! “Oh crap he just got shot!” This must have happened 50 times. It was as ugly of a hunt as they get. I saw one mature buck that made it through the season out on private.

again, if you dinguses let me buy a cost effective spotter maybe I would have been able to see some of this stuff happening.

 

[brocksw]

Those of you that have hunted the current 3rd season dates in CO. Is that typically peak rut down there? I only ask because I generally consider Nov 20-Dec 1 to be peak rut up here in ND and eastern MT.

 

[rogerthat]

Where I was hunting 3rd season the snow was deep enough most deer were down on winter range and not in the cover in my honey holes like they should be during a 3rd season. The hunt went like this - “oh there’s a buck” looking thru spotter. Bam! “Oh crap he just got shot!” This must have happened 50 times. It was as ugly of a hunt as they get. I saw one mature buck that made it through the season out on private.

Meanwhile back in MT, 2 slammers got harvested on some of the most heavily hunted public land in the state. They are out there @FoodIsMemories

#tightentheboots
#lastweek
#buckinthetruck
#30tall

 

[The Hedgehog]

Montana FWP get's a SOLID F for mule deer management.

They'll continue to "manage" by politics, excuses, and fear of standing ground against all those that are so resistant to any meaningful changes.

FWP will continue to waste valuable time putting band-aid on severed limbs. CWD, familty tradition "heritage" , and terrible data will continue to be "crutches".

MT needs to start by:

1) Manage deer and elk entirely different, starting with the connected general season dates. Deer are not elk.
2) MANAGE by units, individually.
3) CHANGE THE GENERAL SEASON DATES to not allow any rifle hunting any time in NOVEMBER.

 

[rogerthat]

Those of you that have hunted the current 3rd season dates in CO. Is that typically peak rut down there? I only ask because I generally consider Nov 20-Dec 1 to be peak rut up here in ND and eastern MT.

I think your peak rut dates would be pretty accurate in Colorado as well if your talking about the majority of does being bred. Peak rut is tough. Once does start coming into estrus even the older age class bucks lose their minds. On my hunt Nov 12-18 I saw a good number of them locked on a doe in the sage getting missed or bumped by hunters and just brain dead as they got mowed down anyway despite this. These were not young bucks. They had lived through many seasons.

 

[Irrelevant]

I heard an interesting perspective from a native Montanan here at work. He is firmly in the opportunity side, mentioned the Hunting heritage/tradition. "Freedom is easy to lose and hard to get back". His take is that we need to keep hunters on the landscape, any and all voluntary reductions in hunters feeds into the anti-hunting hand, effectively doing their job for them. The more hunters we can retain the higher likelihood that hunting continues as a worthwhile endeavor that society as a whole can accept.

 

[GrantK]

Those of you that have hunted the current 3rd season dates in CO. Is that typically peak rut down there? I only ask because I generally consider Nov 20-Dec 1 to be peak rut up here in ND and eastern MT.

depends on the area but generally no, big bucks are just starting to show...

 

[antlerradar]

I heard an interesting perspective from a native Montanan here at work. He is firmly in the opportunity side, mentioned the Hunting heritage/tradition. "Freedom is easy to lose and hard to get back". His take is that we need to keep hunters on the landscape, any and all voluntary reductions in hunters feeds into the anti-hunting hand, effectively doing their job for them. The more hunters we can retain the higher likelihood that hunting continues as a worthwhile endeavor that society as a whole can accept.

Until some enterprising anti hunting group positions to get Mule Deer listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act. If you can do it with prairie dogs, you could do it with mule deer.