Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[rogerthat]

It would seem they are still there! Biggest muley buck I've ever seen was in Lockey Park over 15 years ago, right outside the governor's mansion. Drop tines on both sides.

I really think the big Helena town bucks illustrates clearly what is going on with the bucks in Montana. The only difference between the town bucks and the bucks on Macdonald pass(just an example insert any adjacent area) is age. The genetics are here.

 

[ismith]

Here’s a Helena buck from about 16 years ago. They were culling all the big bucks, wonder when they quit doing that.

 

[SAJ-99]

There's enough group think in the world, the biologists need to be impartial and mange in the best interest of the species, period.

I think the biologists can simply make and defend recommendations. Recent trends have shown they if the recommendations are drastically different than what comments want, they are told to sit down and shut up.

 

[antlerradar]

With respect, this is one where hunters have co-opted a biological term to suit their aesthetic wants. Biologically speaking, “mature” nearly always means sexually reproductive age, particularly when we’re talking about wildlife. Any animal without antlers is mature when it reaches sexual maturity. It is nonsensical to have a different standard just for males of antlered species.

Based on any other subjective metric whether it’s some magic number of years old or antler size, no one can really articulate what “mature” actually means because it depends on the person. Therein lies the problem. I don’t think it’s FWP that has introduced the confusion here.

Thanks for clearing that up. Clearly there is some disconnect here. Maybe if FWP used pictures of 2 1/2 year old bucks instead of bucks like the one in post 1234 it would help with the confusion.

 

[antlerradar]

Fwp’s definition of a “mature” deer:
View attachment 299641
That’s directly out of a winter flight survey report from FWP.

Googles definition:View attachment 299642

That is just depressing.
There was years in the 80's when I saw that may mature bucks by FWP's definition just in the Tongue River breaks and I was not using a plane.

 

[antlerradar]

The problem for that argument is that strictly biologically speaking we could still sustain the human race that way. There is no biological requirement for older age class in the herd. But they should just be honest with us. They are not. Anyway the buck thing is beside the point and that ship sailed decades ago. They got long term population trend problems too.

Nature has a way of weeding the inferior out of the herd if giving the time. If only two year bucks are doing the breeding nature has too short of a window to do its job. Ideally we would want bucks that have proved their worth by surviving tough winters, a drought or two and predators for five years doing the bulk of the breeding.
If I treated my bull herd the way we treat mule deer in Montana I would destroy my cow herd in less than a decade.

 

[rogerthat]

Nature has a way of weeding the inferior out of the herd if giving the time. If only two year bucks are doing the breeding nature has too short of a window to do its job. Ideally we would want bucks that have proved their worth by surviving tough winters, a drought or two and predators for five years doing the bulk of the breeding.
If I treated my bull herd the way we treat mule deer in Montana I would destroy my cow herd in less than a decade.

That’s the best argument for a diverse buck age class I have seen. Great points. I am going to use that.

 

[YoungGun]

Proposed regulations for coming seasons here- a couple good things to see that we as hunters should be commenting on to encourage (410 + 417 going LE, and 426 having a shorter general season with permit only for the later rut dates) and a fair share of bad we should also be addressing (more B tags!).

Comments are due November 21st.

Fish And Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023 | Montana FWP

Fish and Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023

fwp.mt.gov

 

[Straight Arrow]

I do European mounts occasionally. 1st MT mule deer came in yesterday and was dropped off along side my house..
View attachment 299497

Was that buck shot right over the top of it's doe mom?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Was that buck shot right over the top of it's doe mom?

View attachment 299959

Now that's a "mature" buck. Ask FWP. Hunting and deer numbers are good as ever.

 

[brockel]

Proposed regulations for coming seasons here- a couple good things to see that we as hunters should be commenting on to encourage (410 + 417 going LE, and 426 having a shorter general season with permit only for the later rut dates) and a fair share of bad we should also be addressing (more B tags!).

Comments are due November 21st.

Fish And Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023 | Montana FWP

Fish and Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023

fwp.mt.gov

That will change the elk hunting in 410 for sure

 

[FREAK]

I feel like a survey like this would always lean towards opportunity. The fact that 40% of those surveyed said they would fogo an opportunity for a higher probability of harvesting a mature animal is encouraging.

 

[bigsky2]

It's very encouraging to see the changes being proposed in region 4. The fact that there are no changes being proposed in region 7 is very disheartening. Managing for mature bucks is a pipe dream, but at the very least I feel like there should be no doe hunting on public land in region 7. Then throw in the 1000 either-sex B tags in region 6. I'm sure about 90% of those will be filled on bucks. It's mind boggling.

 

[YoungGun]

It's very encouraging to see the changes being proposed in region 4. The fact that there are no changes being proposed in region 7 is very disheartening. Managing for mature bucks is a pipe dream, but at the very least I feel like there should be no doe hunting on public land in region 7. Then throw in the 1000 either-sex B tags in region 6. I'm sure about 90% of those will be filled on bucks. It's mind boggling.

426 should be the minimum standard across the general units- general season long for whitetails, and for Muleys until November 17, then severely limited after that until the end of the season. Bump that up one week to November 10, and we'd really be talking. If 426 has positive remarks in future years, maybe the opportunity and mature buck guys can strike more of a balance than we currently have of Opportunity > Age Class.

 

[The Hedgehog]

That will change the elk hunting in 410 for sure

Even ending November 17th isn’t going to cause much change. FWP likes to stick a toe in the water with what might be a wise decision, but they'll never do anything drastic enough that will result in noteworthy improvement. How about let all the general opportunity we have now with rifle season all of October and archery all of September, along with elk? Statewide. Imagine all the MT hunters that would squeal. In about 5 years everybody would be wishing it would have been done decades ago.

 

[brockel]

Even ending November 17th isn’t going to cause much change. FWP likes to stick a toe in the water with what might be a wise decision, but they'll never do anything drastic enough that will result in noteworthy improvement. How about let all the general opportunity we have now with rifle season all of October and archery all of September, along with elk? Statewide. Imagine all the MT hunters that would squeal. In about 5 years everybody would be wishing it would have been done decades ago.

I meant more of the LE and not the whole town of billings being in 410 chasing the last 2pt.

Depending on how restrictive the LE actually is. Might not see a huge change in traffic

 

[Beignet]

How about let all the general opportunity we have now with rifle season all of October and archery all of September, along with elk? Statewide.

Sign me up. Management aside, I’d love to be able to camp and hunt in warmer weather and watch more college football in November.

 

[FREAK]

lace em up, ol boy says they're still out there.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Shut all general deer hunting down in November, ALL of November, statewide.
Imagine the tears from 90% of the MT hunters, the outfitters, landowners, etc. Nobody willing to give anything up.
Enjoy the "mature" 2 year old deer hunts.

 

[DFS]

View attachment 299987
View attachment 299986

lace em up, ol boy says they're still out there.

Amazing that man still has two feet with boots laced up that tight at that age.