Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Lota lota]

Sunday I hit one of the few public land basins that had a few ninja warrior trolls in it during archery. I climbed a big lookout overlooking the area well before first light.

As the daylight brightened the day, I made out two mule deer does both with twins in the basin. Unfortunately the basin has a two track road running right down the center of it. Shortly an old yellow single cab Chevy came rattle rolling down the two track. Unfortunately one of the does and her fawns were feeding near the two track. I was hopeful no rifle shots would ring out in this basin putting the old bucks fwp insists are there on notice that rifle season had arrived. With the cut to 1000 doe tags in region 7 I thought “what are the odds”. Kaboom. Pretty quickly 2 hunters emerged from the pickup. A short chase followed by another kaboom. One of the fawns being drug back to the truck. Ok. So I guess they had a doe tag. Or maybe they didn’t even read the regs?

Now here is where it gets crappy. After the pickup drove off with the fawn, I noticed mom and the other fawn had not went far and bedded down. Mom got up and started to walk. Right away I could tell. She looked sick. Oh no. Those schmucks gut shot the doe and then shot the fawn without even knowing it. So what’s the point of this crappy hunting story?

Here it is. There were 6 does in that basin(maybe less as the fawns could be bucks.). By Sunday morning the doe population in that public land basin was knocked back by at least 33%. That basin used to hold 20-30 does consistently. How many more years will it take for recovery now? Que the Wyoming rose petal hypothesis mule deer study. That’s what Fwp gets wrong with their antlerless management. We are shooting the wrong does. They say 1000 tags in all of region 7 is meaningless but I guarantee you it damn sure isn’t meaningless in that public land basin. 2 more redneck encounters like that and that basin will have no deer left. It’s just a damn shame.

That's exactly right! I've seen it time and time again. I'm all about opportunity for the elderly and youth hunters...but for God's sake! FWP is literally hunting our mule deer out of existence. I have no place to say who shouldn't kill what... but it comes to a moral and conservational standpoint to where you want the species to succeed. We're at the precipice...and there is going to be a reckoning.

 

[WanderWoman]

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Mismanagement Mondays. Apparently shrubs have left the chat.

Doug can you please clarify? Not sure what you’re getting at here.

 

[Tlrussell]

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Mismanagement Mondays. Apparently shrubs have left the chat.

I would gather that a landscape chock full of antelope is a great proxy for mule deer potential. I wonder what the pronghorn population would look like with otc doe tags?

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

Just think- someone's tax dollars paid Brett to write that useless drivel and publish it. And I'm now dumber for having looked at it.

 

[WanderWoman]

Sunday I hit one of the few public land basins that had a few ninja warrior trolls in it during archery. I climbed a big lookout overlooking the area well before first light.

As the daylight brightened the day, I made out two mule deer does both with twins in the basin. Unfortunately the basin has a two track road running right down the center of it. Shortly an old yellow single cab Chevy came rattle rolling down the two track. Unfortunately one of the does and her fawns were feeding near the two track. I was hopeful no rifle shots would ring out in this basin putting the old bucks fwp insists are there on notice that rifle season had arrived. With the cut to 1000 doe tags in region 7 I thought “what are the odds”. Kaboom. Pretty quickly 2 hunters emerged from the pickup. A short chase followed by another kaboom. One of the fawns being drug back to the truck. Ok. So I guess they had a doe tag. Or maybe they didn’t even read the regs?

Now here is where it gets crappy. After the pickup drove off with the fawn, I noticed mom and the other fawn had not went far and bedded down. Mom got up and started to walk. Right away I could tell. She looked sick. Oh no. Those schmucks gut shot the doe and then shot the fawn without even knowing it. So what’s the point of this crappy hunting story?

Here it is. There were 6 does in that basin(maybe less as the fawns could be bucks.). By Sunday morning the doe population in that public land basin was knocked back by at least 33%. That basin used to hold 20-30 does consistently. How many more years will it take for recovery now? Que the Wyoming rose petal hypothesis mule deer study. That’s what Fwp gets wrong with their antlerless management. We are shooting the wrong does. They say 1000 tags in all of region 7 is meaningless but I guarantee you it damn sure isn’t meaningless in that public land basin. 2 more redneck encounters like that and that basin will have no deer left. It’s just a damn shame.

Re: possibility of an over limit and (if she was shot and died) waste of game; did you call a warden and report it?

 

[rogerthat]

Re: possibility of an over limit and (if she was shot and died) waste of game; did you call a warden and report it?

No I did not. I deliberated on it. I wasn’t able to get a license plate. I tried but it was too far. She was hit low in the abdomen. Definitely was going to die in my experience but probably going to take quite a while. I have the wardens personal cell. I believe in hunters helping police other hunters. I have served the wardens up with clear violations with license plates that have not been dealt with in the past. They have also busted the hell out of some people that I reported that was a long shot so my hats off to them. But I understand, sometimes they are just too busy and have to prioritize. As you know they are spread thin. I don’t want to waste their time.

At the end of the day, I decided not to report as the likelihood of anything coming of it besides a bunch of traipsing around the basin was low. I guess I would like the warden focusing on more nefarious violations than just some slob meat hunters that didn’t even know they committed a violation that was going to be a goat rope to prove or even find the suspect. However the does suffering weighs heavy on my mind. All I have is a tag good for a buck. Maybe the warden and I could have tracked her down and put her out of her misery. We as hunters need to do better.

 

[Irrelevant]

No I did not. I deliberated on it. I wasn’t able to get a license plate. I tried but it was too far. She was hit low in the abdomen. Definitely was going to die in my experience but probably going to take quite a while. I have the wardens personal cell. I believe in hunters helping police other hunters. I have served the wardens up with clear violations with license plates that have not been dealt with in the past. They have also busted the hell out of some people that I reported that was a long shot so my hats off to them. But I understand, sometimes they are just too busy and have to prioritize. As you know they are spread thin. I don’t want to waste their time.

At the end of the day, I decided not to report as the likelihood of anything coming of it besides a bunch of traipsing around the basin was low. I guess I would like the warden focusing on more nefarious violations than just some slob meat hunters that didn’t even know they committed a violation that was going to be a goat rope to prove or even find the suspect. However the does suffering weighs heavy on my mind. All I have is a tag good for a buck. Maybe the warden and I could have tracked her down and put her out of her misery. We as hunters need to do better.

Devil's advocate, how can they best show they need more help if you don't call them? That best way is a report detailing all the calls they couldn't get to.

 

[WanderWoman]

No I did not. I deliberated on it. I wasn’t able to get a license plate. I tried but it was too far. She was hit low in the abdomen. Definitely was going to die in my experience but probably going to take quite a while. I have the wardens personal cell. I believe in hunters helping police other hunters. I have served the wardens up with clear violations with license plates that have not been dealt with in the past. They have also busted the hell out of some people that I reported that was a long shot so my hats off to them. But I understand, sometimes they are just too busy and have to prioritize. As you know they are spread thin. I don’t want to waste their time.

At the end of the day, I decided not to report as the likelihood of anything coming of it besides a bunch of traipsing around the basin was low. I guess I would like the warden focusing on more nefarious violations than just some slob meat hunters that didn’t even know they committed a violation that was going to be a goat rope to prove or even find the suspect. However the does suffering weighs heavy on my mind. All I have is a tag good for a buck. Maybe the warden and I could have tracked her down and put her out of her misery. We as hunters need to do better.

It still wouldn’t hurt to let him or her know. That way if someone else out there finds a dead doe with a bullet hole at least they’ll know the story.

My rule of thumb (even though I’ve never had to really report anything to one) would be to call anyway and leave it to their discretion.

 

[WanderWoman]

Just think- someone's tax dollars paid Brett to write that useless drivel and publish it. And I'm now dumber for having looked at it.

I get that people are angry about mule deer in MT (I mean, we’re going on close to 60 pages now).

I’ve known Brett for years (since he was a biologist in R6) and he is smart, hard-working, and passionate about wildlife, including mule deer. You may disagree with him about how to get from point A to point B, but I’ve never heard him not acknowledge that mule deer numbers are down.

Out of all the things (some which actually is drivel) coming out of FWP, not sure why you would pick a synopsis that is common-flipping knowledge backed up by decades of research by mule deer/ungulate biologists to take issue with (unless reading research paper summaries and facts that are relevant to what’s going on with mule deer in MT and across the west is somehow wrong enough to make you feel “dumber for having looked at it”).

There’s plenty you, we, I can disagree with about what FWP does but it does seem ridiculous to me how easily every. little. thing. that they put out gets proverbially black-balled here.

And by all means, disagree away with your public servants; it’s part of their jobs, but the personal attacks and jabs against FWP bios and managers are unnecessary. They deal with enough other BS already.

 

[rogerthat]

Devil's advocate, how can they best show they need more help if you don't call them? That best way is a report detailing all the calls they couldn't get to.

Good point. I think I know where the doe ended up. I may call it in. Thanks for the solid comments

 

[MTGomer]

Talked to a friend who spent a week in the long pines of the Custer elk hunting and he seen 8 mule deer in a week

I spent a fair amount of time in there around 2012-2015 and that is pretty disappointing to hear. Their numbers were down at that time as well but a person would still see dozens of deer a day with a little effort.

 

[brockel]

I spent a fair amount of time in there around 2012-2015 and that is pretty disappointing to hear. Their numbers were down at that time as well but a person would still see dozens of deer a day with a little effort.

No shortage or people chasing what is left that’s for sure

 

[300stw]

The sooner we can get muldeer on the endangered species list. The sooner we can do something about saving them.

 

[300stw]

I realize that is an absurd thought

 

[huntin24/7]

I won’t go into the cwd effect on mule deer because I honestly don’t know what level of concern that is here, but it is a concern. If you attend FWP meetings, they will openly say that their goal is less older mature muley bucks. There will always be a few big deer killed every year, but if someone was really passionate about killing mature mule deer in MT, I would start saving $ for trespass fees or start making connections with landowners. Had a good conversation with a guy from CO on my Wyoming elk hunt last week about mule deer in CO. He said between the effects of cwd in some areas and the change in management practices related to cwd in other areas, it has really gotten hard to find mature muleys there as well. Don’t know what to say other than the outlook is pretty bleak.

 

[MTTW]

Montana has been managing mule deer for cwd all my life. What more could you do to reduce mature buck numbers than give everyone a tag clear through the rut? Maybe 2 tags I guess.

 

[huntin24/7]

Montana has been managing mule deer for cwd all my life. What more could you do to reduce mature buck numbers than give everyone a tag clear through the rut? Maybe 2 tags I guess.

Not defending any of the management practices. I would like to see most if not all of the rut hunting gone aside from maybe LE draws and much more LE permits as well. Just stating what direction we appear to be obviously heading.

 

[antlerradar]

I realize that is an absurd thought

I have been thinking for a while that some anti hunting group is going to push the endangered species act for mule deer.

 

[Redside]

Montana has been managing mule deer for cwd all my life. What more could you do to reduce mature buck numbers than give everyone a tag clear through the rut? Maybe 2 tags I guess.

Just got the email for the season setting the next two years. After skimming it, I actually think they are proposing 2 tags in areas of R6 in the name of CWD. Deer B license either sex

Fish And Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023 | Montana FWP

Fish and Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023

fwp.mt.gov

 

[rogerthat]

I won’t go into the cwd effect on mule deer because I honestly don’t know what level of concern that is here, but it is a concern. If you attend FWP meetings, they will openly say that their goal is less older mature muley bucks. There will always be a few big deer killed every year, but if someone was really passionate about killing mature mule deer in MT, I would start saving $ for trespass fees or start making connections with landowners. Had a good conversation with a guy from CO on my Wyoming elk hunt last week about mule deer in CO. He said between the effects of cwd in some areas and the change in management practices related to cwd in other areas, it has really gotten hard to find mature muleys there as well. Don’t know what to say other than the outlook is pretty bleak.

I try to hunt Colorado 3rd season every year. The big change in buck quality came with the later season dates. Call that Cwd management practices or whatever but later season dates with the same tag numbers have crushed Colorados big bucks. As should be expected, big bucks are very sensitive to small changes in rut hunting practices as in too much pressure when they are most vulnerable you won’t have any big bucks. It’s really simple. Want big bucks? October seasons