Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[SwaggyD]

I have no problem with people shooting bucks that I would not. It isn't my tag, shoot whatever makes you happy and is legal.

 

[JT88]

There is a difference between quality herd management and quality horn management. I had no qualms with my brother taking that small buck. I could have shot him three times the day before. Then it runs across a field straight to our vehicle. That stupid deer is not quality for herd health.

If you're driving around and you see a 2.5 year old fork chasing a doe in the parking lot, maybe you need to ask yourself why it hasn't been shot yet.

Nevermind, it's too late

 

[Bambistew]

but let's not solely conflate people who think shooting a 2.5 year old is fine with thinking the deer hunting is fine. it is inevitably is a part of the tangle in eastern montana issues, i understand that.

but there are people who are genuinely happy with shooting any deer and I believe that is and should be fine. whether or not the deer hunting is fine should be a separate issue tackled without villifying people who are generally unconcerned with primarily finding trophy deer.

You missed the point. What I was getting at is we shouldn't base our perception of reality and current herd health on the basis of finding and killing, arguably, the easiest of all NA animals to kill in rifle season. You can set your bar as low as you want, as long as the management and health of the herd doesn't suffer because of it. MT's management system is broken, unless you're on the side that doesn't care because it doesn't effect your outcome.

Its a two way street, isn't it? Aren't we sacrificing someone's future opportunity by shooting a young deer? What kind of effect is it having on overall heard health and population? Mule deer populations have declined nearly ever year since the 80s in MT and throughout the west. Is the current management system working, or are they all just pissing in the wind? I think the later.

Why not change the management system and allow for both groups to have the opportunity they want?

 

[SwaggyD]

Then it runs across a field straight to our vehicle.

 

[mtmiller]

My buck was 6.5 years old and managed to stay alive on public land.

Who at the check station told you that?

 

[rogerthat]

The solution is so simple. No reason to reinvent the wheel. All you buck hunters get what you want. October buck seasons.

 

[TOGIE]

Why not change the management system and allow for both groups to have the opportunity they want?

i think this is exactly what i'm driving at.

i'm not sure i 100% agree with sacrificing future opportunity by shooting young deer. you sacrifice opportunity by decimating the deer of all age classes and laying waste to populations of does. that is FWPs fault. maybe at this point shooting the young deer is sacrificing future opportunity because due to FWPs management that's all that's left. am i sacrificing someones opportunity in a limited entry colorado unit by shooting a young deer versus a 3.5 to 4.5 year old deer? aren't we all in general agreement that does will largely be bred regardless? I don't buy that argument. unless one defines opportunity as big deer.

eastern montana is in that situation where people should recognize that they probably shouldn't be shooting deer at or at least perhaps be more selective and therein lies the tangle where it might, and rightfully so, start rubbing people wrong the way people proudly post up their dinkers and not be more selective. but what does selective even mean when even the bigger rutting deer you would select for are young deer? so again, from my perspective - and admittedly i live a ways south - it's on FWP for where it's gotten, not a group of people who are okay with shooting small deer.

 

[SAJ-99]

Aren't we sacrificing someone's future opportunity by shooting a young deer?

Not exactly. If you define opportunity as "pursuit" and not "take". As twisted as it may seem, there may come a time when there is one mule deer buck left in MT and as long as hunters can still buy a tag it can be claimed they get "opportunity".

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

Who at the check station told you that?

Jack Daniels or more likely Evan Williams. Both are aging experts.

 

[JT88]

aren't we all in general agreement that does will largely be bred regardless?

Personally I believe there are now places where there are no bucks left by the end of the season to service the does. I have no way to prove this, but how long do you have to glass does without seeing a buck of any age class to begin to wonder?

 

[MTTW]

I believe that it is pretty much agreed that antler point restrictions are a bad idea in the long run. If this is true, could someone explain to me how pressuring people to hold out for a bigger deer doesn't equate to the same result in Montana where we have the utmost efficiency in removing the better bucks from a herd by hunting them through the rut on winter range. I could see a benefit if they ultimately were unsuccessful, but if they try harder and eventually find a better buck that might very well be the same age or possibly younger this would have the same effect as antler point restrictions over time. I have long believed that the random nonselective hunter is the friend of the big buck hunter far more than the person who holds out for the biggest young deer.

Our situation is on MTFWP, and we can't brow beat our way out of it.

 

[JT88]

I'm not trying to be a jerk. It just bothers me that we are shooting virtually every mule deer buck on the landscape at this point, because it's easy and legal. And yes, it does fall on FWP, and hard

 

[ismith]

Allowing out of state hunters to hunt in Montana is a major contributor to climate change. There, I said it.

 

[Irrelevant]

There's no cap on WA NR tags... just saying.

 

[MTTW]

Personally I believe there are now places where there are no bucks left by the end of the season to service the does. I have no way to prove this, but how long do you have to glass does without seeing a buck of any age class to begin to wonder?

I agree with this statement. If I was to share what I saw in 16 days of hunting this rifle season it would paint me as an absolute failure as a hunter, so I won't.

 

[Pagosa]

There is a difference between quality herd management and quality horn management. I had no qualms with my brother taking that small buck. I could have shot him three times the day before. Then it runs across a field straight to our vehicle. That stupid deer is not quality for herd health. Go ahead and take him! My buck was 6.5 years old and managed to stay alive on public land. But he was done. Turns out he had a damaged right eye (note the blood in photo) with blood inside the orbit. I suspect he was blind in that eye (but I shot him from left side). A good one to cull. Some bruising to shoulder on that side too. Possibly hit by a vehicle or hurt fighting.

From my limited experience with check stations I don’t believe their aging methods, way less than scientific. I could be highly wrong but I was told a 3.5 was 5.5 old deer. I cut up quite a few deer and based on body size and facial looks the deer I got was 3.5 years old max. I’m sending in incisors to get it aged, to either prove myself or the FWP technician were incorrect.
I would honestly bet your buck is a 2.5 year old deer, no offense intended, but they are hitting a crack pipe if the6 think that buck aged 6.5 years old. Again it’s a nice deer.

 

[Pagosa]

There was a guy on Facebook that posted about his 12 year old daughter shooting 6 deer this season and she still has an elk tag. I love kids and people hunting a lot, but this is not respecting the animal and is complete mismanagement of Gods resources. Our society is more excited about big buck or total body count than health of the resource/animal. I understand why people in eastern Montana hate people from Kalispell (aka Region 1) hunting in regions 6/7.
I’ve sent in my comments to the FWP staff and commissioners and contacted the regional biologists about the proposed 2024/25 season structure. I hope they implement some changes to pronghorn and deer seasons. Talking with the biologists I feel that I don’t have a leg to stand on. I don’t care if someone wants to shoot a trophy or a small buck/doe, but we should really stop someone from shooting multiple deer in a single season in these times. Everyone should be commenting on these season proposals.

 

[rogerthat]

From my limited experience with check stations I don’t believe their aging methods, way less than scientific. I could be highly wrong but I was told a 3.5 was 5.5 old deer. I cut up quite a few deer and based on body size and facial looks the deer I got was 3.5 years old max. I’m sending in incisors to get it aged, to either prove myself or the FWP technician were incorrect.
I would honestly bet your buck is a 2.5 year old deer, no offense intended, but they are hitting a crack pipe if the6 think that buck aged 6.5 years old. Again it’s a nice deer.

I agree. I have actually seen fwp technicians miss the opposite way as well. Aging a 6.5 year old buck as a 3.5 year old. The 6.5 years was determined by lab age. Often it is just a technician at the check station. Molar wear aging in the field isn’t easy. To be good takes years and years. I usually can get close on a jaw that is removed from the skull sometimes needing to compare it to other jaws from previously lab aged bucks. Now try to age that buck in the back of a hunters truck, while still attached to the skull with multiple vehicles waiting to get checked.

 

[tjones]

My buck was 6.5 years old and managed to stay alive on public land.

Who at the check station told you that?

A drunk?


Maybe there is a metric system for aging deer too, kinda like a Canadian version of dog years.

 

[antlerradar]

I think there are very few people that believe we could ever get back to the good old days. Times have changed, habitat has changed, etc.

Every reason why we can not get back to the good old days is also a reason why we can not hunt mule deer like we did in the good old days.