Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Bambistew]

Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance.

I guess it would also depend and the Mission Statement of NGO's and whether game agencies would reach out.

I had forgot the Goat Alliance does those counts. I'm guessing so because MTFWP doesn't really have the $ to do good counts? I would think that a game count could worked into about any hunting NGO mission statement. Its critical information needed to sustain the organization.

With the technology available today with drones, and thermal detection. I would think they could do some pretty intensive game counts, for a reasonable price. Another data point to compare to the MTFWP population model would be worth its weight in gold. This study is very interesting. The accuracy is much higher than visual observations. This is something that could be done for a very reasonable cost if I was going to guess.

WSB: Drones with thermal cameras estimate mammal abundance - The Wildlife Society

Researchers are using thermal sensor-equipped drones to count wildlife. The application of thermal cameras with drones has enormous potential, said Jared Beaver, an assistant professor and wildlife specialist at Montana...

wildlife.org

https://wp.auburn.edu/deerlab/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-WSB-Beaver-et-al..pdf

 

[MTLabrador]

SHHH... Someone will go smoke them too.

People already do anywhere near Cooke City that they can drive an ATV too. It amazes me how many people go up there to shoot 1.5 year old bucks.

 

[brockel]

People already do anywhere near Cooke City that they can drive an ATV too. It amazes me how many people go up there to shoot 1.5 year old bucks.

There was a group from Washington that were in 410 that did the same thing this weekend. Nice guys but damn that’s a long drive to shoot a 1.5 year old carp deer

 

[DFS]

There was a group from Washington that were in 410 that did the same thing this weekend. Nice guys but damn that’s a long drive to shoot a 1.5 year old carp deer

At least it was September and not November.

 

[SwaggyD]

At least it was September and not November.

#neckmeat

 

[brockel]

At least it was September and not November.

They were coming back middle of November for the rest of them. 2 of the 7 in the group had archery elk permits so they all came out

 

[antlerradar]

They were coming back middle of November for the rest of them. 2 of the 7 in the group had archery elk permits so they all came out

How may doe tags?

 

[brockel]

How may doe tags?

I never asked that.

 

[DFS]

Hunters will never self regulate. I ran into a group of North Dakotans with 24 doe tags a few years back most of them already filled. They said our state doesn’t let us do that so we come here.
edit: they were proud that they had done it on public land in November. With the deer numbers where they were hunting I don’t doubt they worked for it.

 

[brockel]

Hunters will never self regulate. I ran into a group of North Dakotans with 24 doe tags a few years back most of them already filled. They said our state doesn’t let us do that so we come here.
edit: they were proud that they had done it on public land in November. With the deer numbers where they were hunting I don’t doubt they worked for it.

Seen a group at cenex a couple years ago with a atv trailer loaded to the gills with does and the pickup box had legs sticking out too.

 

[SwaggyD]

Seen a group at cenex a couple years ago with a atv trailer loaded to the gills with does and the pickup box had legs sticking out too.

I’ve seen the same from my in laws neighbors in Helena when I went to my in laws for thanksgiving dinner. Had a trailer of 20+ mule deer on it. Hide on. Unhooked from the pickup. Just hanging out. There’s no doubt where they killed them.

 

[8andcounting]

Hunters will never self regulate. I ran into a group of North Dakotans with 24 doe tags a few years back most of them already filled. They said our state doesn’t let us do that so we come here.
edit: they were proud that they had done it on public land in November. With the deer numbers where they were hunting I don’t doubt they worked for it.

Us damn North Dakotans …. Lol

 

[Eric Albus]

I’ve posed the question to FWP, “why are we shooting mule deer does on public/accessible lands in the first place”.
IMO there should be no doe mule deer hunting on accessible lands until there’s a population issue. If/when over population happens then issue “x” number of license for antlerless. Wait a minute…this makes no sense, just issue doe tags until there are no deer left. Don’t know what I was thinking.

 

[R.K.]

I had forgot the Goat Alliance does those counts. I'm guessing so because MTFWP doesn't really have the $ to do good counts? I would think that a game count could worked into about any hunting NGO mission statement. Its critical information needed to sustain the organization.

With the technology available today with drones, and thermal detection. I would think they could do some pretty intensive game counts, for a reasonable price. Another data point to compare to the MTFWP population model would be worth its weight in gold. This study is very interesting. The accuracy is much higher than visual observations. This is something that could be done for a very reasonable cost if I was going to guess.

WSB: Drones with thermal cameras estimate mammal abundance - The Wildlife Society

Researchers are using thermal sensor-equipped drones to count wildlife. The application of thermal cameras with drones has enormous potential, said Jared Beaver, an assistant professor and wildlife specialist at Montana...

wildlife.org

https://wp.auburn.edu/deerlab/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-WSB-Beaver-et-al..pdf

The tools are available, but there is no appetite for it. That is the problem- everyone with the ability to do anything about the problem has buried their head in the sand, toed the line, or been removed from their position, and that includes the resident sportsman who find themselves driving farther and hunting longer for their ever shrinking piece (smaller deer) of an ever-shrinking pie (deer populations), while telling themselves "This is great!" and "It's my birthright!". Yep- killing bison (or eastern elk, or passenger pigeons, or heath hens) was a birthright, right up until there were none left.

I'm appalled that the biologists can say with a straight face that mule deer populations are at an all time high, when they aren't even the highest in the past decade, per their own data. And this report has been scrubbed of all the data from the "glory days", most likely due to the line of "unsustainably high populations not representative of landscape carrying capacity." It's criminally deceitful, how they knowingly lie to those whom they are beholden to as the managers of the wildlife they "hold in trust" for the public/residents of the state in order to avoid any confrontation.

As far as mandatory check-in? Missouri has mandatory check by 10pm on the day the tag is notched- can be done online, over the phone, or on a mobile app. The system is in place and proven, and some timing accommodations for the remoteness of MT would rectify any issues with "I couldn't get phone service". Is there some deceit that goes on with reporting? Of course- that's human nature. But saying the new system would be ineffective because of this would also completely discredit the current random phone call model. Nothing says you can't use both in tandem for a couple of years- if the phone calls are so cheap, then this shouldn't be an issue! Get concurrent data and correlate it. But better data is critical if we are to have any hope of improving the resource.

On that note- The thermal drone option is fantastic. I shudder to think what flight time costs these days, for the av gas alone. I think a drone would pay for itself within the first year on a cost-savings basis. And it would give better counts, although it might struggle to differentiate between elk, deer, and antelope, let alone mule deer vs whitetails. But tie it in with GIS data (relatively easy to do), and you suddenly have a powerful tool for checking public/private distribution of animals. For those people screaming about "taking jobs from the pilots"- have them retrained as drone operators. It's not that hard, it's not that expensive, and it will keep these people that have experience with the landscape utilizing that experience.

Am I a biologist? I technically have the degree, but I don't use it professionally. Am I from Montana? No- moved here 4 years ago, hunted 3 of those years. In that time, I've killed two 4-pt bucks (not mature), and ate my tag rather than shoot a forkie on the last day of season. Does that mean I'm a part of the problem? You betcha. But I'm at least willing to learn, and I'm willing to fight to make things better.

It's all a joke. Rant over. Kill the last forkie and doe, take all the money you can selling unlimited tags for the opportunity, then put up a statue to the species here.

 

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[mtmuley]

Are you Russian?

Let's hope not. Once is enough. mtmuley

 

[JLS]

My eyes are still scarred.

 

[FREAK]

Their Data suggests things are improving...I would consider an average age of 5-6 to be a mature deer. Seems like a lot of deer in the 19-22" range which would suggest the numbers are reasonable but the genetics aren't great in the area.

I know the areas I've hunted over the years are migration corridors and the largest impact to quality is how hard the winter is and the wolf populations. I'm planning to try and do my part and will try and get a wolf this year to help with this issue.

I know personally, I've harvested a number of these bucks listed below, I'm haven't punched a tag in two years but I've passed a handful in the 150-160" range, Hopefully i can find them again and see if they've made it to the next level. It's a tough dilemma, guys have limited time and seeing a 150" buck on the hoof is hard for a lot of weekend warriors to pass up. If you're concerned like me about the numbers and quality my recommendation is you lay off the trigger this November when that 4 yr old 150" walks in front of you and save your bullet for a wolf.

 

[FREAK]

I also pulled the last 17 years of harvest data. Looks like we've stayed consistent on buck harvest numbers but had a gap from 2007-2017 where total harvest numbers were down substantially. Looks like a couple mild winters starting around 15 have helped the numbers come back. It looks like we've maintained a steady 4pt or higher ration compared to total harvest over the 14 yr. period of hunter surveys.

-ELKdeerMT

 

[300stw]

I’ve posed the question to FWP, “why are we shooting mule deer does on public/accessible lands in the first place”.
IMO there should be no doe mule deer hunting on accessible lands until there’s a population issue. If/when over population happens then issue “x” number of license for antlerless. Wait a minute…this makes no sense, just issue doe tags until there are no deer left. Don’t know what I was thinking.

ive asked the same question a number of times in reg 6 and reg 7, the blank stares are like deer in the spotlights,,, maybe thats why, employees are getting spotlighted, waterboarded,ect so there scared to addres the public with the truth