Montana missouri breaks sheep 2025 regs.

[Labman]

You should have showed up in Bozeman a couple weeks ago and voiced your opinions, and heard what is being done on the ground right now.

Do you think the general public will ever hear about the 9 mature rams that died very recently in a unit that doesn’t exist? I’ve heard conflicting reports on that one. Sounds strange to have 9 mature rams die of a respiratory infection, at what sounds like - the exact same time.
Similar style response when the world record ram was found on WHI, and then “lost” for 9 months, and then suddenly rediscovered when they were pushed on the issue.
My trust in FWP is constantly being tested.

 

[Carnage2011]

Do you think the general public will ever hear about the 9 mature rams that died in a unit that doesn’t exist? I’ve heard conflicting reports on that one. Sounds strange to have 9 mature rams die of a respiratory infection, at what sounds like - the exact same time.
Similar style response when the world record ram was found on WHI, and then “lost” for 9 months, and then suddenly rediscovered when they were pushed on the issue.
My trust in FWP is constantly being tested.

It’s not always FWP’s fault. There’s also situations where FWP is trying to open units with mature rams and the public tries to shut them down. I.e. Glen Hockett and the greenhorns sheep herd.

 

[Labman]

It’s not always FWP’s fault. There’s also situations where FWP is trying to open units with mature rams and the public tries to shut them down. I.e. Glen Hockett and the greenhorns sheep herd.

I get that, but at least I can use google and get a page of links to pop up about Glen Hockett.
This other incident never happened unless you were sitting in a hotel conference room on a Saturday morning. If you took a trip to the Men’s Room you wouldn’t have missed the entire discussion on the subject. From where I sit the whole thing comes across as a no big deal event that the public doesn’t need to be informed about.

 

[Oak]

Sounds strange to have 9 mature rams die of a respiratory infection, at what sounds like - the exact same time.

I don’t know what you’re alluding to, and I know nothing about the situation you reference. But the line above would not be strange or uncommon at all.

 

[DFS]

Do you think the general public will ever hear about the 9 mature rams that died very recently in a unit that doesn’t exist? I’ve heard conflicting reports on that one. Sounds strange to have 9 mature rams die of a respiratory infection, at what sounds like - the exact same time.
Similar style response when the world record ram was found on WHI, and then “lost” for 9 months, and then suddenly rediscovered when they were pushed on the issue.
My trust in FWP is constantly being tested.

Hopefully this isn’t the rams I enjoy seeing. I haven’t seen them for awhile.

 

[Labman]

I don’t know what you’re alluding to, and I know nothing about the situation you reference. But the line above would not be strange or uncommon at all.

I wish we all knew…I had heard 9 mature rams had recently died in a capture net prior to the subject being brought up at the MTWSF annual meeting. Then the FWP reps said those rams died of a respiratory disease. One of the guys I was sitting next to asked me if that sounded odd that 9 mature rams all died on the same day. I agreed, but maybe it could happen, I’m not an expert on M-Ovi.
I was in the back of the room and couldn’t hear everything, but the public shouldn’t have to dig for information on this event. It should be very transparent and out in the open what occurred and where.

There’s only a quota of 14 rams in the entire Region (R3) that hunters can harvest. When 9 mature rams die under suspicious circumstances it doesn’t even rise to the level worthy of a news story, I find that odd.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Relocate them.

To be fair, 622 has been used as a source population. Multiple times. But translocations can’t keep up with good recruitment either. Translocation is not to be taken lightly. The limiting factor is in the release sites, not the sources. Dumping animals in unsuitable locations where they are likely to die is not a better alternative to hunting them IMO.

Even with translocations and ewe tags, 622 was still one of the most robust populations in the state, until the last couple years. Unfortunately, with the plethora of sheep and goats on the landscape, robust and expanding populations run ever greater risk of exactly this happening. It’s a complex problem, no doubt.

 

[huntin24/7]

I’m sure there are a lot of variables involved in this, but is recovery generally pretty good in these kind of situations where sheep populations have traditionally done well or is it a pretty long recovery?

 

[Bluffgruff]

Was it Montana where the State would not play ball to buy a landowner's property or swap public for private so the landowner pushed a crapton of domestic sheep onto the land neighboring bighorn sheep? Maybe was 5 years ago? That is gangster to risk bighorns when is plenty of suitable grazing further from bighorn herds. But, hey, we need a few people to set the bar on humanity quite low so the rest of us look like heroes for just being no more than a slightly crappy person.

@LopeHunter
I think you're looking for this

Bighorns, bears and bad blood: grazing v. wildlife on Owl Creek - WyoFile

Game and Fish, BLM, wildlife conservationists and a rancher are locked in battle over bighorn sheep, grazing permits and cattle-killing grizzlies.

wyofile.com

 

[Bambistew]

I’m sure there are a lot of variables involved in this, but is recovery generally pretty good in these kind of situations where sheep populations have traditionally done well or is it a pretty long recovery?

I don't believe there has ever been a successful repopulation after a big die-off. The Highlands in MT had around 500 sheep in the 90s they died down to around 50. I think there is about 150 today. I believe they augmented that herd after the die off as well. I also think their estimated population in 1990s population was low, much like the mule deer population estimates of that era.

I'm sure @BuzzH and @BigHornRam could spit some stats on the Rock Creek and Bitterroot herds but they also suffered significant die offs in the last couple decades and have not come back.

Virtually every herd in MT has suffered. This one is just the latest. The adjacent one will be next.

The only reason FWP gives ewe tags is to keep the population low to reduce the chance of transmission of disease. No way are they running out of available habitat. There used to be 100,000 wild sheep in Montana. That habitat is still there, and could support another 95,000 sheep... Shooting ewes isn't because they ran out of habitat.

They don't like to relocate sheep due to transmission of disease between herds. They can carry many other diseases which they have built immunity too, while the native herd they're augmented into have not.

IMO, believing we can manage domestic sheep and goats to eliminate transmission of Movi is a fantasy. That idea to test and quarantine was floated in Alaska where we have around 6-800 domestic sheep/goats. It got very little support by the domestic owners and many became quite hostile to the idea. They just don't care about wildlife. If you think people will do the right thing, we'd have 100% compliance for vaccination and licensing of dogs, yet it's around 50%. What makes you think sheep/goat owners would be any better? The only reason brucellosis is managed for cattle is because it costs the ranchers money. It has nothing to do with transmission to wildlife.

I used to think if sheep were listed, they'd have a chance. I don't anymore. I honestly don't think they have any chance of surviving short of developing natural immunity. Even a vaccination for pneumonia for wild sheep will have limited success.

@BigHornRam does Jesse have historical population data for the Madison's? Because much of that habit in those images you posted had sheep in it 60-70 years ago. My family and their friends hunted them and killed them. They also suffered big die-offs in the 1960-70s and only a few small pockets survived in the Hilguards and Spanish Peaks. The Madison herd is one of the few last surviving herds of native sheep in Montana that have not been augmented. IMO, building that herd will result in yet another massive die off. Wishful thinking, but you'd think they would have leaned something from the last 50 years of "conservation."

MT's sheep population is back where it was in the 1960s. All those efforts and all we have is the same thing we stated with. There was nearly 350-380 sheep permits given in the early 90s. It's what, 140 now? All those studies, all that information, all that effort, all that backslapping auction tag "conservation" money... What have we got to show for it? A 1960s bighorn sheep population. They could have done nothing and been in the same spot. Who knows we'd probably be better off because they wouldn't have spread the disease all over the place via relocation efforts.

I can't wait to hear the excuses from the Wealthy Sheephunter Foundation Kool aid drinking crowd. I'm glad they're passionate, just imagine if they were actually successful.

It's painfully obvious none of them or biologist have an answer or we see some sort of success in the last 50 years... Maybe they just need more time and money?

 

[WanderWoman]

I’m sure there are a lot of variables involved in this, but is recovery generally pretty good in these kind of situations where sheep populations have traditionally done well or is it a pretty long recovery?

It depends. Oftentimes there will be years and years of poor recruitment because surviving animals will shed bacteria to lambs. For instance, the Sun River herd had a die-off in 2010 but are only recently experiencing better recruitment and population growth.

 

[BigHornRam]

Do you think the general public will ever hear about the 9 mature rams that died very recently in a unit that doesn’t exist? I’ve heard conflicting reports on that one. Sounds strange to have 9 mature rams die of a respiratory infection, at what sounds like - the exact same time.
Similar style response when the world record ram was found on WHI, and then “lost” for 9 months, and then suddenly rediscovered when they were pushed on the issue.
My trust in FWP is constantly being tested.

You are talking about the Mill Creek herd. I heard sheep were in there, including a number of older rams, 25 years ago. The bio at the time was reluctant to open it up for hunting. Didn't think the population was big enough to justify the work to open up a new unit. To be fair, that was back when the yellowstone wolf/elk issues were raging, and most his time was tied up with that.

I heard they were trying to get a count on the sheep in there this winter and try to get some collars on. Started to find dead sheep before that happened. I'm not up to speed on many details. PM me about what you have been hearing.

 

[BigHornRam]

I don't believe there has ever been a successful repopulation after a big die-off. The Highlands in MT had around 500 sheep in the 90s they died down to around 50. I think there is about 150 today. I believe they augmented that herd after the die off as well. I also think their estimated population in 1990s population was low, much like the mule deer population estimates of that era.

I'm sure @BuzzH and @BigHornRam could spit some stats on the Rock Creek and Bitterroot herds but they also suffered significant die offs in the last couple decades and have not come back.

Virtually every herd in MT has suffered. This one is just the latest. The adjacent one will be next.

The only reason FWP gives ewe tags is to keep the population low to reduce the chance of transmission of disease. No way are they running out of available habitat. There used to be 100,000 wild sheep in Montana. That habitat is still there, and could support another 95,000 sheep... Shooting ewes isn't because they ran out of habitat.

They don't like to relocate sheep due to transmission of disease between herds. They can carry many other diseases which they have built immunity too, while the native herd they're augmented into have not.

IMO, believing we can manage domestic sheep and goats to eliminate transmission of Movi is a fantasy. That idea to test and quarantine was floated in Alaska where we have around 6-800 domestic sheep/goats. It got very little support by the domestic owners and many became quite hostile to the idea. They just don't care about wildlife. If you think people will do the right thing, we'd have 100% compliance for vaccination and licensing of dogs, yet it's around 50%. What makes you think sheep/goat owners would be any better? The only reason brucellosis is managed for cattle is because it costs the ranchers money. It has nothing to do with transmission to wildlife.

I used to think if sheep were listed, they'd have a chance. I don't anymore. I honestly don't think they have any chance of surviving short of developing natural immunity. Even a vaccination for pneumonia for wild sheep will have limited success.

@BigHornRam does Jesse have historical population data for the Madison's? Because much of that habit in those images you posted had sheep in it 60-70 years ago. My family and their friends hunted them and killed them. They also suffered big die-offs in the 1960-70s and only a few small pockets survived in the Hilguards and Spanish Peaks. The Madison herd is one of the few last surviving herds of native sheep in Montana that have not been augmented. IMO, building that herd will result in yet another massive die off. Wishful thinking, but you'd think they would have leaned something from the last 50 years of "conservation."

MT's sheep population is back where it was in the 1960s. All those efforts and all we have is the same thing we stated with. There was nearly 350-380 sheep permits given in the early 90s. It's what, 140 now? All those studies, all that information, all that effort, all that backslapping auction tag "conservation" money... What have we got to show for it? A 1960s bighorn sheep population. They could have done nothing and been in the same spot. Who knows we'd probably be better off because they wouldn't have spread the disease all over the place via relocation efforts.

I can't wait to hear the excuses from the Wealthy Sheephunter Foundation Kool aid drinking crowd. I'm glad they're passionate, just imagine if they were actually successful.

It's painfully obvious none of them or biologist have an answer or we see some sort of success in the last 50 years... Maybe they just need more time and money?

Actually, the Madison sheep were augmented after one of the die-offs and a number of biologists felt it was a mistake. I believe the transplants were not suited to that rugged environment and died quickly. No sheep from other areas will be brought in to supplement the herd.

The sheep in Wyomings Absaroka's that have been tested, all carry pathogens responsible for respiratory disease, from domestic contact in the 1800s. The remaining survivors today are thought possibly to be resistant to the pathogens they carry.

 

[Southern Elk]

The only reason FWP gives ewe tags is to keep the population low to reduce the chance of transmission of disease. No way are they running out of available habitat. There used to be 100,000 wild sheep in Montana. That habitat is still there, and could support another 95,000 sheep... Shooting ewes isn't because they ran of habitat.

You forgot to mention opportunity. In Montana we have to give the people opportunity, the population of game be damned.