Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[Archer86]

Where is the updated proposal with more archery seasons? Hearing some rumblings there is changes being proposed maybe is just people talking though.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Heres some data on prongorn/elk permits from the earlier part of the conversation. Area 630 - for example, 25 cow elk tags, 50 bull tags, and 200 antelope tags. Lets go R7 - 7500 antelope tags, 480 rifle elk tags, 2100 cow tags. Seems like its basically true across the units. 3 times as many lope hunters as total elk hunters.

Yes. People dump their antelope and drive home. Is someone from Helena or kalispell who drew an antelope permit by miles city, and plans to hunt mule deer there in october going to do the same thing?

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In the spirit of offering solutions - heres an easy one to fix it.

Cant hunt mule deer in the same region that you get an antelope permit in. If it comes down to whats best for the resource that seems to make sense.

 

[SAJ-99]

My main focus, will probably always be archery elk.

I think therein lies the problem. Everyone sees it from their own perspective and how it affects them. That is why you can’t make progress. To your and others point, there is always something wrong with every idea. Sacrifices are hard.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think therein lies the problem. Everyone sees it from their own perspective and how it affects them. That is why you can’t make progress. To your and others point, there is always something wrong with every idea.

Sacrifices are hard.

Not if only everyone else has to make the sacrifices…

 

[Forkyfinder]

Not if only everyone else has to make the sacrifices…

You havent refuted the relevant point about antelope, why?

I am not sure this ends up better for R6 and R7 - considering the antelope problem.

 

[Gerald Martin]

You havent refuted the relevant point about antelope, why?

I am not sure this ends up better for R6 and R7 - considering the antelope problem.

I wasn’t responding to the antelope idea. I was responding to the overall concept of general response of folks wanting to protect their preferences

 

[Forkyfinder]

I wasn’t responding to the antelope idea. I was responding to the overall concept of general response of folks wanting to protect their preferences

I guess im failing to see how the public land mule deer in antelope rich areas are going to benefit if people are chasing elk and antelope in the same season.

Itd be very easy to glass for muleys early in the morning and in the evening and try to find antelope during the day. Plan to do it myself if the proposal goes through.

 

[cgasner1]

I guess im failing to see how the public land mule deer in antelope rich areas are going to benefit if people are chasing elk and antelope in the same season.

Itd be very easy to glass for muleys early in the morning and in the evening and try to find antelope during the day. Plan to do it myself if the proposal goes through.

I mean you currently can go do that if it’s easy and use your bow. Season will always have some sort of overlap unless they get shortened.

 

[Gerald Martin]

On the antelope logic. Is it your belief that more deer will get killed overall by allowing an overlap of antelope and mule deer than are currently killed by deer hunters hunting the rut?

Isnt that the only thing that really matters? I’m not sure if your point is that there will be more incidental harvest of deer in 6 and 7 with antelope than there are with elk?

If that’s your point that’s probably true for 6 and 7. However there’s seven regions in MT not two. Also, I think the amount of deer killed by deer hunters in the rut vs deer killed by antelope and deer hunters in October is greater.

But, I might not be tracking your argument. It’s been a long day.

 

[Forkyfinder]

On the antelope logic. Is it your belief that more deer will get killed overall by allowing an overlap of antelope and mule deer than are currently killed by deer hunters hunting the rut?

Isnt that the only thing that really matters? I’m not sure if your point is that there will be more incidental harvest of deer in 6 and 7 with antelope than there are with elk?

If that’s your point that’s probably true for 6 and 7. However there’s seven regions in MT not two. Also, I think the amount of deer killed by deer hunters in the rut vs deer killed by antelope and deer hunters in October is greater.

But, I might not be tracking your argument. It’s been a long day.

Thats the only thing that really matters yeah. More deer getting shot. R4 and R5 itd depend on the unit.

Im not certain - but largely my point is that assuming less incidental harvest will occur when youre adding an additional species is shakey in a big chunk of the state without some additional strings.

 

[cgasner1]

Thats the only thing that really matters yeah. More deer getting shot. R4 and R5 itd depend on the unit.

Im not certain - but largely my point is that assuming less incidental harvest will occur when youre adding an additional species is shakey in a big chunk of the state without some additional strings.

It’s not at all from what I have witnessed in the field. Archery hunting bucks in October I get about 45 minute on each end of the daywhere they are up on their feet and moving. November I get cold snow and the deer are up and moving all day to eat and breed. The animals act totally different in these two months. Unless seasons are cut short enough And don’t overlap you’ll never get away from opportunity harvest. It will just be significantly less in October.

 

[That7MagDude]

What's the latest update?

 

[cgasner1]

What's the latest update?

Still looking for feedback that’s constructive. If you have something to add please do but also consider this far into the game it does seem like we have addressed anything that someone could come up with. Always open to listening to a new perspective though. Also it’s pushing a really big rock up a really steep hill and we are still at the bottom

 

[R.K.]

Still looking for feedback that’s constructive. If you have something to add please do but also consider this far into the game it does seem like we have addressed anything that someone could come up with. Always open to listening to a new perspective though. Also it’s pushing a really big rock up a really steep hill and we are still at the bottom

At least you got the rock dug out and the shape roughed out. Once it’s chiseled into a shape that will move easier, let us know how to help, and we’ll get behind it and push.

 

[RandanP]

In the area I have experience with in region 1, wolves definitely had a duel effect. In areas where there had been a historic mountain to valley floor migration in the winter and valley floor to mountain migration in the summer the elk changed their patterns. These are areas of relatively high human density and the wolves did not pressure the elk when they were down low. They tended to shift their prey base to whitetails primarily. Moose and mule deer were hit disproportionately hard as well.

Those elk now live primarily on the valley floor. Those herds seemed to tolerate human proximity more than wolves and overall local herd numbers have grown. Cow harvest in the area is by permit only so hunters are limited in how many cows are taken and the overall unit population has remained fairly stable in relation to long term average. However, bull to cow ratios have gone from 16-18/100 post season in 2002 to @ 6-8/100 in 2020. I attribute this mainly to increased access to 2 1/2 year old bulls that are still running with the cow herds when rifle season starts. Those elk herds are moving across several dozen small properties all the time and most of those landowners have a general season elk tag that is good for a brow tined bull. The vast majority of bulls in the lowland herds do not survive to reach 3 1/2 years old and are killed the first year they’re a legal raghorn. Wolves move the elk, hunters kill the bulls.

In the areas where elk stayed in the mountains year round and just changed elevation or slope exposure as their wintering strategy those herds were reduced significantly by wolf predation. There are still elk in those areas but in limited numbers and very small herds or isolated individuals. Think in terms of a herd being 4-10 animals. They survive by luck of the draw relative to a “needle in a haystack”concept as wolves in the area also prey heavily on mountain whitetail and miss enough elk each year for these isolated herds to just maintain.

Those areas are almost completely saturated with wolves at max carrying capacity in every suitable habitat. Those packs also tend to operate like the elk herds and are made up of 4-10 individuals with 10 being a large pack and not very common. They do not control as large of a territory as larger packs in open areas and breeding age juveniles splinter off and form new pairs/packs rather than staying with a pack and not breeding.


I’ve also hunted SW Montana for nearly as long as I’ve hunted NW MT even though I have not spent as many days per year there. The amount of wolves in SW MT compared to NW MT is a fraction and both FWP data and hunter experience will confirm that.

I have no doubt that when wolves were expanding their range and still listed under the ESA they had an impact on large scale movement of elk. Those elk were probably already using the lower elevation of private lands for winter range and just stayed longer as an effect of wolf avoidance. It’s not coincidental that as archery pressure has increased multifold elk have learned that there’s less human predation on those private lands as well and select those areas for refuge.

Wolves have been hunted for years now and FWP has adopted management strategies for predator maintenance that has kept wolve numbers relatively stable in SW MT.

Nothing as of yet has been done to address the increased numbers and efficiency of human predation during archery and general seasons on public land.

The common theme I see is that private property currently seems to offer the best chance of individual survival for an elk in response to predation pressure and the elk are selecting those areas as their survival strategy. Whether that pressure is four legged or two legged with a gun, if pressure isn’t reduced to a level elk will tolerate, they will either move to survive or die.

We shoot and trap wolves under long seasons with liberal quotas as the management strategy for four legged canine predation.

We allow unlimited OTC hunting for eleven weeks with continuously increasing efficiency in harvest technology as the management strategy for two legged predation.

It doesn’t seem difficult to me to figure out where there’s the effective area for change to address predation.

In your time in R1, what would you say the “good old days” were in terms of hunting elk and deer?

 

[Gerald Martin]

In your time in R1, what would you say the “good old days” were in terms of hunting elk and deer?

I think I missed most of it. I didn’t arrive until 2002 but based on reports from friends who had hunted it longer than myself I would say the peak was early 90’s - 2005.

I definitely noticed a decline by the time wolves were delisted in 2010.