Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[BuzzH]

Now do rifle. And look at the harvest stats. Good info Buzz.

Rifle season that starts at the end of October doesn't move elk onto private in September.

Just sayin'.

 

[muleydude]

Increasing numbers of archery hunters is not the cause.......nobody credible who understands the problem well believes that...........the primary cause is wolf restoration. Winter comes early in SW Montana.......major September snowstorms are normal......I suspect as well that elk have figured out that during their rut, being lower on private ground, less exposed to wolves, is preferable to higher ground, being more exposed......as we have all acknowledged, elk are pretty smart..........their going to move down quicker and earlier.

There's been several studies on it........increased predator populations are the primary reason behind these changes in elk behavior, not a few thousand more guys sitting in camo in trees.

The conclusions are obvious...........in just 10-12 years following wolf restoration dramatic changes happened. Like I said, don't believe me, or the studies, go talk to the landowners. They know exactly when it started to radically change. Wolves began impacting elk populations very rapidly after re-introduction and quickly spread into SW Montana, in addition to Montana's recovery efforts. In 8 yrs after re-introduction in the northern Yellowstone winter range, elk populations were cut in half. Cutting archery seasons isn't going to suddenly solve the problem. Its way more complex then that.

Here is one study below done in Yellowstone in 2012:


"Our best logistic regression model suggested the proportion of elk occupying the upper elevation sector decreased following wolf restoration and increased snowpack. The proportion of elk occupying the lower elevation sector increased following wolf restoration and as snowpack increased at higher elevations. Linear regression suggested group sizes increased in the lower elevation sector after wolves were restored."


"Wolves were restored to this ecosystem during 1995–1997 and their abundance and distribution rapidly increased (Smith, 2005). Estimates of elk numbers on northern Yellowstone winter range decreased from 25,453 during 1987–1994 to 12,420 in winter 2003 (i.e., Dec. 2002 through Apr. 2003) and 9675 in winter 2009"

https://www.emwh.org/pdf/elk/Changes%20in%20Elk%20Distribution%20and%20Group%20Sizes%20After%20Wolf%20Restoration%202012.pdf

 

[muleydude]

What is quite possible is that increased archery hunting could be a contributing stress factor to them since they are now under more stress due to increased predator levels. I think that is quite possible.

But, as the research showed above, wolf restoration had a dramatic and very quick impact on elk herds. It is the primary driver of this change that has happened. The quickness and sheer breadth, of the change, came fast in the early to mid 2000's on their behavior in SW Montana. The correlation is obvious. Once again, the landowners can vouch for this and how fast it happened. The problem of these dramatic changes in elk movement in SW Montana didn't trickle upward in a slow upward slope as archery hunters increased over the years. The change happened pretty fast.

I find it interesting that this thread, and proposal, has been going on for the better part of a year, and this subject of this predatory/prey relationship hasn't even been discussed. You guys can shoot the messenger here, but in the very first post, the OP said they wanted to start a discourse on the proposal.

Every time somebody suggest that maybe something different is going on then the standard line of thinking in this thread, we get lambasted. Not every single problem with Montana elk and deer herds is due to season structures. The issues are way more complex then that.

 

[bigsky2]

Not every single problem with Montana elk and deer herds is due to season structures. The issues are way more complex then that.

We all agreed on that when our group met. Season structure is a contributing factor though, and it was the one factor that we felt hunters had the most control over.

 

[SixPoint]

The habitat in NW Montana is vastly different the SW Montana; you don't have wide-open massive ranches on the valley floor; WAY more public land in NW Montana. And it is pretty much heavy timber from the valley floors and up. This helps give the elk a wider base of habitat to get away from the wolves, and since there are not these massive ranches down low, there isn't really anywhere for these elk to congregate.

Go talk to the landowners from the Dillon area, south to Lima, out through the Centennial valley, and up through the Ruby. They are front and center of this problem. These massive lower elevation ranches are were the problem is. These areas of Montana have timber at the higher elevations, but is wide open on the valley floors. Way different then NW Montana. At first, how it started, is what happened is that as soon as the first major storm hit, which is usually mid to late September to mid October, the elk would flood down to the lowlands because trying to avoid wolves in snow becomes much more difficult.....but, as time has gone on these elk have just started to figure out its safer the more time they spend down low. I am not saying that elk aren't migrating back up in elevation in SW Montana in the Spring and Summer, but, what I am saying is that are really nervous, and it doesn't take much now to drive them down. But, like I said, the "Big Change" came after wolves were reintroduced. This problem didn't exist near to the level it does now in the 70's,80's and early 90's. Unfortunately now, grizzly populations have also exploded, especially out in the Centennial valley.

As a guy who lives in SW MT and manages a lot of private land I can tell you wolves are a non issue. Do me a favor this September and take a drive through the gravelly/ Ruby and report back how many wolves you see (0) and how many archery camps and side by sides you see on public property (hundreds). One meadow last fall had over 40 separate camps in it within a few hundred yard stretch of the road. Are there areas such as around the park where wolves have had an impact? Sure. But this fist pounding blaming wolves across the board doesn’t hold water.

 

[mtmuley]

As a guy who lives in SW MT and manages a lot of private land I can tell you wolves are a non issue. Do me a favor this September and take a drive through the gravelly/ Ruby and report back how many wolves you see (0) and how many archery camps and side by sides you see on public property (hundreds). One meadow last fall had over 40 separate camps in it within a few hundred yard stretch of the road. Are there areas such as around the park where wolves have had an impact? Sure. But this fist pounding blaming wolves across the board doesn’t hold water.

I don't think wolves are solely to blame and probably do not have an effect in some areas. But I noticed a definite shift where I hunt. And the area does not get a significant amount of pressure. I can jump in the truck right now and find hundreds of low lying elk in different areas. And they never leave. mtmuley

 

[SixPoint]

I don't think wolves are solely to blame and probably do not have an effect in some areas. But I noticed a definite shift where I hunt. And the area does not get a significant amount of pressure. I can jump in the truck right now and find hundreds of low lying elk in different areas. And they never leave. mtmuley

I think in region 1 and 2 there could definitely be an argument to be made that they have changed elk behavior.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think in region 1 and 2 there could definitely be an argument to be made that they have changed elk behavior.

In the area I have experience with in region 1, wolves definitely had a duel effect. In areas where there had been a historic mountain to valley floor migration in the winter and valley floor to mountain migration in the summer the elk changed their patterns. These are areas of relatively high human density and the wolves did not pressure the elk when they were down low. They tended to shift their prey base to whitetails primarily. Moose and mule deer were hit disproportionately hard as well.

Those elk now live primarily on the valley floor. Those herds seemed to tolerate human proximity more than wolves and overall local herd numbers have grown. Cow harvest in the area is by permit only so hunters are limited in how many cows are taken and the overall unit population has remained fairly stable in relation to long term average. However, bull to cow ratios have gone from 16-18/100 post season in 2002 to @ 6-8/100 in 2020. I attribute this mainly to increased access to 2 1/2 year old bulls that are still running with the cow herds when rifle season starts. Those elk herds are moving across several dozen small properties all the time and most of those landowners have a general season elk tag that is good for a brow tined bull. The vast majority of bulls in the lowland herds do not survive to reach 3 1/2 years old and are killed the first year they’re a legal raghorn. Wolves move the elk, hunters kill the bulls.

In the areas where elk stayed in the mountains year round and just changed elevation or slope exposure as their wintering strategy those herds were reduced significantly by wolf predation. There are still elk in those areas but in limited numbers and very small herds or isolated individuals. Think in terms of a herd being 4-10 animals. They survive by luck of the draw relative to a “needle in a haystack”concept as wolves in the area also prey heavily on mountain whitetail and miss enough elk each year for these isolated herds to just maintain.

Those areas are almost completely saturated with wolves at max carrying capacity in every suitable habitat. Those packs also tend to operate like the elk herds and are made up of 4-10 individuals with 10 being a large pack and not very common. They do not control as large of a territory as larger packs in open areas and breeding age juveniles splinter off and form new pairs/packs rather than staying with a pack and not breeding.


I’ve also hunted SW Montana for nearly as long as I’ve hunted NW MT even though I have not spent as many days per year there. The amount of wolves in SW MT compared to NW MT is a fraction and both FWP data and hunter experience will confirm that.

I have no doubt that when wolves were expanding their range and still listed under the ESA they had an impact on large scale movement of elk. Those elk were probably already using the lower elevation of private lands for winter range and just stayed longer as an effect of wolf avoidance. It’s not coincidental that as archery pressure has increased multifold elk have learned that there’s less human predation on those private lands as well and select those areas for refuge.

Wolves have been hunted for years now and FWP has adopted management strategies for predator maintenance that has kept wolve numbers relatively stable in SW MT.

Nothing as of yet has been done to address the increased numbers and efficiency of human predation during archery and general seasons on public land.

The common theme I see is that private property currently seems to offer the best chance of individual survival for an elk in response to predation pressure and the elk are selecting those areas as their survival strategy. Whether that pressure is four legged or two legged with a gun, if pressure isn’t reduced to a level elk will tolerate, they will either move to survive or die.

We shoot and trap wolves under long seasons with liberal quotas as the management strategy for four legged canine predation.

We allow unlimited OTC hunting for eleven weeks with continuously increasing efficiency in harvest technology as the management strategy for two legged predation.

It doesn’t seem difficult to me to figure out where there’s the effective area for change to address predation.

 

[BuzzH]

Gerald, 12 weeks, don't forget the muzzleloader hunt...oh, and the youth deer season.

Also, bears and lions have increased significantly in regions 1 and 2, thanks to the whining houndsmen.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Buzz, I agree with most of that. However, black bears aren’t increasing in Region 1. If anything they are decreasing due to the rise in popularity of spring bear hunting.

 

[shoots-straight]

So I've seen the argument go back and forth on Wolves being the reason Elk migrated to private lands. Thought I might as well inject my .02 cents worth here.

In the infamous Hunting District 250 of the upper Bitterroot the Elk population in the early 2000's to about 2004 was at objective levels. Wolves had came over the hill from the Frank Church reintroduced area not far away, and set up camp there shortly after the 1995 transplant. I was building a cabin up the West Fork, and saw with my own eyes what transpired there.

The Department, with new orders from the legislature, was on a quest to kill off Elk and get those herds at or under Objectives by 2007. The department put a bio here in the Root as basically a hit man to follow through on that order. That's what we felt anyway, because he didn't need to push so hard to get Elk killed unless otherwise.

Even though the population in HD 250 was just AT objective he liberalized the season structure to that of the other famous HD in the Root HD 270. It was over objective and so there was to be a open either sex season starting the third week of hunting seasons in both HD's. Starting on a Saturday no less.

Snow came deep and weather cold, our new bio even put a add in the Missoulian newspaper that all you needed was a Elk tag and you were golden to get a Elk in the upper Root. It's mostly public lands except for one large Ranch, and smaller ones.

It was a slaughter, terrible shootouts happened in both areas. The West Fork hadn't had open cow seasons and those Elk were caught out on steep open slopes in numbers.

The Numbers of Elk crashed dramatically in both HD's BUT with wolves, bears, and lions in pretty high numbers the Elk in the West fork had to low of numbers to rebound. The Predator pit syndrome took hold because the ELk numbers were lower than what it took to feed all the mouths there.

At the same time as Wolf reintroduction was going on, there was a new machine taking hold on public lands by the American recreationists. The 4 x 4 quad runner ATV. People started hitting the hills in the summer earlier and earlier each year looking for horns, bears, fishing , you name it.

The local Bio at that time (different one from hitman) was working on studies to see what caused the big decline in Elk numbers and was monitoring collars they had on a bunch of ELk. The biggest movement by Elk to private lands occured on Labor Day Weekend. Thousands of Archers, and ATV's racing around the public lands forced Elk off the more accessible areas sooner. ATV's continue to increase and the love affair with them is just as detrimental as any predator.

Elk now race long distances to migrate (many in the night), to get to the largest ranches and settle in. The other HD 250 has marginal private lands in the very bottoms of the area but Elk congregate there because they are left alone somewhat to rut. The area have extensive 4 x 4 back trails and much of the area is open to motorized use in the summer to fall seasons.

There's no doubt that Wolves, lions and bears did a number on Elk in the upper Bitterroot but are only part of the equation why Elk move so early to private.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[shoots-straight]

Buzz, I agree with most of that. However, black bears aren’t increasing in Region 1. If anything they are decreasing due to the rise in popularity of spring bear hunting.

Add in 4 extra weeks on both ends to hunt and use of hounds. Might be over doing the Bear kill.

 

[mtmuley]

So I've seen the argument go back and forth on Wolves being the reason Elk migrated to private lands. Thought I might as well inject my .02 cents worth here.

In the infamous Hunting District 250 of the upper Bitterroot the Elk population in the early 2000's to about 2004 was at objective levels. Wolves had came over the hill from the Frank Church reintroduced area not far away, and set up camp there shortly after the 1995 transplant. I was building a cabin up the West Fork, and saw with my own eyes what transpired there.

The Department, with new orders from the legislature, was on a quest to kill off Elk and get those herds at or under Objectives by 2007. The department put a bio here in the Root as basically a hit man to follow through on that order. That's what we felt anyway, because he didn't need to push so hard to get Elk killed unless otherwise.

Even though the population in HD 250 was just AT objective he liberalized the season structure to that of the other famous HD in the Root HD 270. It was over objective and so there was to be a open either sex season starting the third week of hunting seasons in both HD's. Starting on a Saturday no less.

Snow came deep and weather cold, our new bio even put a add in the Missoulian newspaper that all you needed was a Elk tag and you were golden to get a Elk in the upper Root. It's mostly public lands except for one large Ranch, and smaller ones.

It was a slaughter, terrible shootouts happened in both areas. The West Fork hadn't had open cow seasons and those Elk were caught out on steep open slopes in numbers.

The Numbers of Elk crashed dramatically in both HD's BUT with wolves, bears, and lions in pretty high numbers the Elk in the West fork had to low of numbers to rebound. The Predator pit syndrome took hold because the ELk numbers were lower than what it took to feed all the mouths there.

At the same time as Wolf reintroduction was going on, there was a new machine taking hold on public lands by the American recreationists. The 4 x 4 quad runner ATV. People started hitting the hills in the summer earlier and earlier each year looking for horns, bears, fishing , you name it.

The local Bio at that time (different one from hitman) was working on studies to see what caused the big decline in Elk numbers and was monitoring collars they had on a bunch of ELk. The biggest movement by Elk to private lands occured on Labor Day Weekend. Thousands of Archers, and ATV's racing around the public lands forced Elk off the more accessible areas sooner. ATV's continue to increase and the love affair with them is just as detrimental as any predator.

Elk now race long distances to migrate (many in the night), to get to the largest ranches and settle in. The other HD 250 has marginal private lands in the very bottoms of the area but Elk congregate there because they are left alone somewhat to rut. The area have extensive 4 x 4 back trails and much of the area is open to motorized use in the summer to fall seasons.

There's no doubt that Wolves, lions and bears did a number on Elk in the upper Bitterroot but are only part of the equation why Elk move so early to private.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

The Hitman. I remember those days. mtmuley

 

[DFS]

The Hitman. I remember those days. mtmuley

I killed a cow elk in 250 around those days. Now I feel bad.

 

[mtmuley]

I killed a cow elk in 250 around those days. Now I feel bad.

Looks like there are still cow elk there. Pretty good herd lives with the horses on Triple Creek. mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, I agree with most of that. However, black bears aren’t increasing in Region 1. If anything they are decreasing due to the rise in popularity of spring bear hunting.

Guess I was thinking more along the lines of the black bears bigger cousin, they can impact elk calves pretty significantly.

 

[MTGomer]

So I've seen the argument go back and forth on Wolves being the reason Elk migrated to private lands. Thought I might as well inject my .02 cents worth here.

In the infamous Hunting District 250 of the upper Bitterroot the Elk population in the early 2000's to about 2004 was at objective levels. Wolves had came over the hill from the Frank Church reintroduced area not far away, and set up camp there shortly after the 1995 transplant. I was building a cabin up the West Fork, and saw with my own eyes what transpired there.

The Department, with new orders from the legislature, was on a quest to kill off Elk and get those herds at or under Objectives by 2007. The department put a bio here in the Root as basically a hit man to follow through on that order. That's what we felt anyway, because he didn't need to push so hard to get Elk killed unless otherwise.

Even though the population in HD 250 was just AT objective he liberalized the season structure to that of the other famous HD in the Root HD 270. It was over objective and so there was to be a open either sex season starting the third week of hunting seasons in both HD's. Starting on a Saturday no less.

Snow came deep and weather cold, our new bio even put a add in the Missoulian newspaper that all you needed was a Elk tag and you were golden to get a Elk in the upper Root. It's mostly public lands except for one large Ranch, and smaller ones.

It was a slaughter, terrible shootouts happened in both areas. The West Fork hadn't had open cow seasons and those Elk were caught out on steep open slopes in numbers.

The Numbers of Elk crashed dramatically in both HD's BUT with wolves, bears, and lions in pretty high numbers the Elk in the West fork had to low of numbers to rebound. The Predator pit syndrome took hold because the ELk numbers were lower than what it took to feed all the mouths there.

At the same time as Wolf reintroduction was going on, there was a new machine taking hold on public lands by the American recreationists. The 4 x 4 quad runner ATV. People started hitting the hills in the summer earlier and earlier each year looking for horns, bears, fishing , you name it.

The local Bio at that time (different one from hitman) was working on studies to see what caused the big decline in Elk numbers and was monitoring collars they had on a bunch of ELk. The biggest movement by Elk to private lands occured on Labor Day Weekend. Thousands of Archers, and ATV's racing around the public lands forced Elk off the more accessible areas sooner. ATV's continue to increase and the love affair with them is just as detrimental as any predator.

Elk now race long distances to migrate (many in the night), to get to the largest ranches and settle in. The other HD 250 has marginal private lands in the very bottoms of the area but Elk congregate there because they are left alone somewhat to rut. The area have extensive 4 x 4 back trails and much of the area is open to motorized use in the summer to fall seasons.

There's no doubt that Wolves, lions and bears did a number on Elk in the upper Bitterroot but are only part of the equation why Elk move so early to private.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Even I know about that and I was just a kid. I’m no fan of wolves but FWP destroyed those units, not predators.

Or another way to look at it, predators were in the process of destroying those units and instead of counter acting, FWP piled on.

 

[R.K.]

“Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining."- T. Roosevelt

Instead of bickering back and forth on whether or not wolves killed off all the elk or pushed them into private instead of more hunters and days afield with better technology, how about focusing on pulling the levers we have available to us? We want more elk on public land, leading to better success (defined by hunter days per harvested elk).

You’re not going to be able to kill off all the wolves- that ship has sailed.

So it’s about managing human pressure and habitat quality to get more elk on public. That’s pretty much it. If more elk spend more time on public, that would also increase landowner tolerance to higher elk numbers, since they aren’t having to personally deal with the higher numbers. And that pressure seems to be the big driver for FWP to reduce herd objectives.

Shed hunting, ATV use, archery hunter days, no break between for rifle season, rifle hunter days, long seasons, now a muzzleloader season… it’s just too much pressure on the animals for them to not seek refuge wherever they can. Mainly private, inaccessible areas.

We’ve all seen elk move across property lines during season- to private if they’re pressured, but they’ll wander back if they aren’t. Currently, those are usually promptly scared back or shot. It’s why so many hunters will sit on boundaries to chase elk.

But it seems that everybody is being greedy children and unwilling to give up any “opportunity”. Even though they have a better chance at getting an elk if they did.

Two weeks between archery and rifle, a split rifle season, a bigger break between rifle and muzzleloader, and private-only shoulder seasons- those would be the best ways to give elk enough of a break to redistribute back to public lands. Without going to limited-entry, that is.

And while you might argue it would increase crowding, I would say
reducing the hunter days to harvest an elk by 25% would mean you could eliminate 20% of the season- and STILL have fewer people on the landscape.

So if you want to argue wolves are magical creatures that can re-route rivers (they can’t) or cut the paradise valley elk herd by half (that was FWP giving out cow tags intentionally), fine. But there’s plenty of other threads to whine and beat that dead horse. This one is here to find solutions.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think the sooner we think about anything other than weather or disease that kills an elk as a predator and manage accordingly, the sooner we can understand and implement appropriate policy to address the additive mortality of predation.

Harsh weather kills elk. Nothing we can do to change that. Good habitat can help mitigate the effects of harsh weather and keep ungulates stronger to survive the winter and have better birth rates in the spring. So, habitat protection and improvement is a key leg for healthy herds.

Disease outbreak can affect elk populations and herd health. Currently, this is not a major limiting factor in MT elk populations. CWD is a looming concern and has a serious potential to have population level effects.

Predation kills elk. Other than grizzly bears, MT has management strategies to address the effects of predation. I will argue that MT’s strategy to manage human predators has not evolved in sufficient efficiency to responsibly protect wildlife on publicly accessible lands.
It’s ironic that of all the predators humans are the only ones intelligent enough to understand cause and effect and the concept of sustainable management strategies, yet we are also seemingly unable to accept that we may need to harmonize our opportunity in proportion to the needs of other predators and the health of prey species.
The hierarchical structure of values that we use to identify and maintain priority of access to prey species such as deer and elk is often so self centered in placing humans first that it can be to the direct detriment of our ability to maintain sustainable opportunity for us as humans.

The self centered priority of “us first” can become more important than the very thing that allows us to be recipients of the surplus and harm the resource we depend on. It’s astonishingly counterproductive at times.

 

[cgasner1]

So I've seen the argument go back and forth on Wolves being the reason Elk migrated to private lands. Thought I might as well inject my .02 cents worth here.

In the infamous Hunting District 250 of the upper Bitterroot the Elk population in the early 2000's to about 2004 was at objective levels. Wolves had came over the hill from the Frank Church reintroduced area not far away, and set up camp there shortly after the 1995 transplant. I was building a cabin up the West Fork, and saw with my own eyes what transpired there.

The Department, with new orders from the legislature, was on a quest to kill off Elk and get those herds at or under Objectives by 2007. The department put a bio here in the Root as basically a hit man to follow through on that order. That's what we felt anyway, because he didn't need to push so hard to get Elk killed unless otherwise.

Even though the population in HD 250 was just AT objective he liberalized the season structure to that of the other famous HD in the Root HD 270. It was over objective and so there was to be a open either sex season starting the third week of hunting seasons in both HD's. Starting on a Saturday no less.

Snow came deep and weather cold, our new bio even put a add in the Missoulian newspaper that all you needed was a Elk tag and you were golden to get a Elk in the upper Root. It's mostly public lands except for one large Ranch, and smaller ones.

It was a slaughter, terrible shootouts happened in both areas. The West Fork hadn't had open cow seasons and those Elk were caught out on steep open slopes in numbers.

The Numbers of Elk crashed dramatically in both HD's BUT with wolves, bears, and lions in pretty high numbers the Elk in the West fork had to low of numbers to rebound. The Predator pit syndrome took hold because the ELk numbers were lower than what it took to feed all the mouths there.

At the same time as Wolf reintroduction was going on, there was a new machine taking hold on public lands by the American recreationists. The 4 x 4 quad runner ATV. People started hitting the hills in the summer earlier and earlier each year looking for horns, bears, fishing , you name it.

The local Bio at that time (different one from hitman) was working on studies to see what caused the big decline in Elk numbers and was monitoring collars they had on a bunch of ELk. The biggest movement by Elk to private lands occured on Labor Day Weekend. Thousands of Archers, and ATV's racing around the public lands forced Elk off the more accessible areas sooner. ATV's continue to increase and the love affair with them is just as detrimental as any predator.

Elk now race long distances to migrate (many in the night), to get to the largest ranches and settle in. The other HD 250 has marginal private lands in the very bottoms of the area but Elk congregate there because they are left alone somewhat to rut. The area have extensive 4 x 4 back trails and much of the area is open to motorized use in the summer to fall seasons.

There's no doubt that Wolves, lions and bears did a number on Elk in the upper Bitterroot but are only part of the equation why Elk move so early to private.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Not to steer attention away from the sw side but what happened to the breaks? Bull quality has nose dived I wonder why? No wolves or big bears to be had. Use to be a general archery hunt now it’s a draw.