Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[mtmuley]

Plus, hunting bulls that time of year is a way different deal than hunting cows.

Yep. mtmuley

 

[muleydude]

But, what caused the shift to begin with? It's a learned behavior from pressure, no different than a migration corridor or does and their female fawns returning to nearly the same places to have their fawns.

This is correct......but the pressure didn't come from hunting pressure on elk in SW Montana, it came from wolves......most of the landowners in SW Montana will tell you that is when the big shift came in elk behavior........elk have had lots of hunting pressure on them in Western Montana for decades, but weren't coming down that early and in that big of numbers. The big difference was when wolves were reintroduced and were able to get a good foothold population wise. This behavior change really started happening in the later part of the 90's and early 2000's. Its a predator response pure and simple. The game wardens in the areas most affected will confirm this as well, as it has increased the concentration of elk in the lowlands much earlier in the year, which has resulted in all kinds of enforcement problems.

Changes in season structure etc isn't going to solve the elk in the lowlands problem in SW Montana as it is driven by a change in the predator/prey relationship.

 

[Gerald Martin]

So predators move the elk that are in the mountains in August and September to private land mid- October?

In NW MT I’ve seen the shift of elk from the mountains to lowland private that correlated to the rapidly expanding wolf populations. However, in those cases, elk that historically hit the valley floor at greenup and then distributed up into the mountains as soon as their calves were born began to stay on the valley floor all year long.

Where I hunt now there’s plenty of elk in the mountains as soon as the snow melts in April and through early fall. By rifle season there’s hundreds of not thousands of cows already down on the private land. I see a small fraction of the amount of wolf sign compared to NW MT.

 

[DFS]

So predators move the elk that are in the mountains in August and September to private land mid- October?

In NW MT I’ve seen the shift of elk from the mountains to lowland private that correlated to the rapidly expanding wolf populations. However, in those cases, elk that historically hit the valley floor at greenup and then distributed up into the mountains as soon as their calves were born began to stay on the valley floor all year long.

Where I hunt now there’s plenty of elk in the mountains as soon as the snow melts in April and through early fall. By rifle season there’s hundreds of not thousands of cows already down on the private land. I see a small fraction of the amount of wolf sign compared to NW MT.

What do you see for nonresident and eastern Montana hunters?
edit: in your region

 

[muleydude]

So predators move the elk that are in the mountains in August and September to private land mid- October?

The habitat in NW Montana is vastly different the SW Montana; you don't have wide-open massive ranches on the valley floor; WAY more public land in NW Montana. And it is pretty much heavy timber from the valley floors and up. This helps give the elk a wider base of habitat to get away from the wolves, and since there are not these massive ranches down low, there isn't really anywhere for these elk to congregate.

Go talk to the landowners from the Dillon area, south to Lima, out through the Centennial valley, and up through the Ruby. They are front and center of this problem. These massive lower elevation ranches are were the problem is. These areas of Montana have timber at the higher elevations, but is wide open on the valley floors. Way different then NW Montana. At first, how it started, is what happened is that as soon as the first major storm hit, which is usually mid to late September to mid October, the elk would flood down to the lowlands because trying to avoid wolves in snow becomes much more difficult.....but, as time has gone on these elk have just started to figure out its safer the more time they spend down low. I am not saying that elk aren't migrating back up in elevation in SW Montana in the Spring and Summer, but, what I am saying is that are really nervous, and it doesn't take much now to drive them down. But, like I said, the "Big Change" came after wolves were reintroduced. This problem didn't exist near to the level it does now in the 70's,80's and early 90's. Unfortunately now, grizzly populations have also exploded, especially out in the Centennial valley.

 

[Gerald Martin]

What do you see for nonresident and eastern Montana hunters?
edit: in your region

For elk, Region 3 is destination central for NR. Region 1 has seen a marked decline in the number of NR hunters since 2010.

As far as Eastern MT hunters go, I see far more folks from Kalispell, Missoula, etc. than I do from Billings and east.

 

[BuzzH]

The habitat in NW Montana is vastly different the SW Montana; you don't have wide-open massive ranches on the valley floor; WAY more public land in NW Montana. And it is pretty much heavy timber from the valley floors and up. This helps give the elk a wider base of habitat to get away from the wolves, and since there are not these massive ranches down low, there isn't really anywhere for these elk to congregate.

Go talk to the landowners from the Dillon area, south to Lima, out through the Centennial valley, and up through the Ruby. They are front and center of this problem. These massive lower elevation ranches are were the problem is. These areas of Montana have timber at the higher elevations, but is wide open on the valley floors. Way different then NW Montana. At first, how it started, is what happened is that as soon as the first major storm hit, which is usually mid to late September to mid October, the elk would flood down to the lowlands because trying to avoid wolves in snow becomes much more difficult.....but, as time has gone on these elk have just started to figure out its safer the more time they spend down low. I am not saying that elk aren't migrating back up in elevation in SW Montana in the Spring and Summer, but, what I am saying is that are really nervous, and it doesn't take much now to drive them down. But, like I said, the "Big Change" came after wolves were reintroduced. This problem didn't exist near to the level it does now in the 70's,80's and early 90's. Unfortunately now, grizzly populations have also exploded, especially out in the Centennial valley.

So wolves don't kill elk in the valleys?

They must stay up high eating berries and grazing on grass...

Of course to ice the cake, we all know that archery pressure has steadily declined all through the 80's-2025...

 

[DFS]

So wolves don't kill elk in the valleys?

They must stay up high eating berries and grazing on grass...

Of course to ice the cake, we all know that archery pressure has steadily declined all through the 80's-2025...

Dive into the harvest stats. Elk get pressured they change what they do but stick around, rifles that make a loud bang move them for good. Montana has long seasons and technology and rifles have changed the game, not archery. That’s why I’m concerned about making the rifle season longer, that is when the bullshit comes out.

 

[muleydude]

So wolves don't kill elk in the valleys?

They absolutely do........its just that the habitat of the valley floor in NW Montana is vastly different then the valley floor in SW Montana...........and.....the land ownership is much different in NW Montana then SW Montana as well. NW Montana habitat has the ability to disperse elk and give them more protection from wolves then SW Montana.

Like I said, go talk to the landowners......and the game wardens in those areas. These problems didn't exist before the late 1990's. FWP itself won't publicly admit to it because its too political. It got so bad for awhile that many of the landowners enrolled in BMA program in these areas threatened the FWP with pulling there land out of BMA if FWP didn't deal with wolf populations. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your justification of why you want seasons to be changed, but, that is what is driving the problem in SW Montana. Your issues in Wyoming might be completely different and have different reasons driving it.

 

[WildWill]

Dive into the harvest stats. Elk get pressured they change what they do but stick around, rifles that make a loud bang move them for good. Montana has long seasons and technology and rifles have changed the game, not archery. That’s why I’m concerned about making the rifle season longer, that is when the bullshit comes out.

Must have never hunted Colorado OTC if you think archery dosen't pressure elk. Seen elk pile up just like described above in Colorado and it wasn't from the 3 wolves in the state.

 

[muleydude]

Region 3 elk hunters had 335,981 hunting days in 2004; in 2022 they had 373,817 hunting days; about a 10% increase. Over a 20 yr period that is pretty minimal and I would argue almost imperceptible to elk on a year to year basis. I doubt a 10% increase in hunter days is responsible for this wholesale behavior change in elk migration patterns in region 3 over this time period.

Like I said, the "change" is the predator reintroduction. These changes in elk behavior happened fast, way faster then a slow, drawn out, minimal increase in hunter days over a 20 yr period would cause.

 

[DFS]

Must have never hunted Colorado OTC if you think archery dosen't pressure elk. Seen elk pile up just like described above in Colorado and it wasn't from the 3 wolves in the state.

Never hunted archery but I think I’ve hunted 3rd season 5 times and could have killed a brow tine bull every year had that been the goal.

 

[BuzzH]

Dive into the harvest stats. Elk get pressured they change what they do but stick around, rifles that make a loud bang move them for good. Montana has long seasons and technology and rifles have changed the game, not archery. That’s why I’m concerned about making the rifle season longer, that is when the bullshit comes out.

Right, archery has had no impact on elk and how they use the landscape in Montana...got it.

 

[DFS]

Right, archery has had no impact on elk and how they use the landscape in Montana...got it.

Far less than rifle. Sorry if that’s hard to hear.

 

[BuzzH]

Region 3 elk hunters had 335,981 hunting days in 2004; in 2022 they had 373,817 hunting days; about a 10% increase. Over a 20 yr period that is pretty minimal and I would argue almost imperceptible to elk on a year to year basis. I doubt a 10% increase in hunter days is responsible for this wholesale behavior change in elk migration patterns in region 3 over this time period.

Like I said, the "change" is the predator reintroduction. These changes in elk behavior happened fast, way faster then a slow, drawn out, minimal increase in hunter days over a 20 yr period would cause.

Go back and look at archery pressure in 1984...compare it to 2024.

The change in archery technology and drastic increase in archery hunters happened fast...

 

[DFS]

Go back and look at archery pressure in 1984...compare it to 2024.

The change in archery technology and drastic increase in archery hunters happened fast...

Yeah the change in rifle technology is going to mirror it. I’m sure archery pressure was nonexistent. Look at the harvest stats buzz.

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah the change in rifle technology is going to mirror it. I’m sure archery pressure was nonexistent. Look at the harvest stats buzz.

So it's your contention that more elk were killed in 1984 by archery hunters than killed in 2024?

Yeah....sure.

Archery hunters probably shot and lost more elk in 2024 than were killed by archery hunters in 1984.

 

[DFS]

So it's your contention that more elk were killed in 1984 by archery hunters than killed in 2024?

Yeah....sure.

Archery hunters probably shot and lost more elk in 2024 than were killed by archery hunters in 1984.

That’s not even close to what I’m saying. I suspect archery hunters in 1984 the year I was born is almost nonexistent.

 

[BuzzH]

That’s not even close to what I’m saying. I suspect archery hunters in 1984 the year I was born is almost nonexistent.

about 20k in 1985, the first year I killed an elk with a bow in Montana, in 2021 60K...a 3 fold increase in less than 40 years.

The numbers went from 29kish in the mid-90's to 60k in 2021, with the steepest increase between about 1999-present. Just purely by chance, and mere coincidence, a direct correlation to when elk starting really piling onto private earlier and earlier.

Wolves weren't even reintroduced until 1995 into Yellowstone.

I can tell you for sure, that elk were starting to utilize low country more and more all through the 90's and early 2000's and that was mostly related to archery pressure. Even in areas with no wolves or very few wolves. I'm not forced to guess...

Here you go:

https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/aboutfwp/public-comments/draft-elk-management-plan/elk-plan.pdf

Archery HuntingCurrently, the archery season is six weeks long, beginning the first Saturday in September andextending into mid-October. Historically, archery hunting was offered to provide hunterrecreation rather than population management FWP 1989, FWP 2005. Although the level of elkharvest with archery equipment is notable, in many HDs, archery opportunity is still offeredprimarily to provide recreation more so than for population management.The number of hunters purchasing an archery stamp in Montana has steadily and substantiallyincreased over time (73% increase 2004-2021; Figure 4) which has resulted in increased archeryharvest. For example, total archery harvest increased 56% from 2004 to 2021 (Figure 5).Archery harvest varies by FWP administrative region and is still a small but increasingproportion of the overall harvest (Figure 6). Region 3 has the highest average number of elkharvested with archery equipment, whereas eastern Montana, specifically Regions 6 and 7,have the highest percentages of harvest attributed to archery (Table 1).The contribution of archery harvest to overall harvest becomes more prominent whenexamining bull harvest; antlerless harvest by archers appears to be minimal (<6% of totalantlerless harvest). Approximately 21–28% of nonresident bull harvest was during archeryseason (2015–2021), whereas 16–23% of resident bull harvest was from archers during thesame time. Nonresidents made a larger contribution to total archery harvest (29%) than theydid to total rifle harvest (17%).

Studies from the late 1980s indicated no consistent changes in elk distributions in response to archery hunting. More recently, effects on elk distributions havebeen found in response to archery hunting Conner et al. 2001, Vieira et al. 2003, Proffitt et al. 2013 & 2016a.Additionally, there are roads that are open during archery season and closed during rifleseason. These motorized routes and the increased use of them during archery season affect elksecurity during archery season. FWP recognizes that under specific circumstances, archery hunting can influence elk distribution if hunter densities are high enough.

You think, in region 3, where they have the highest average number of elk harvested with archery gear would correlate to the areas and "circumstances that can influence elk distribution"?

I'd think so, intuitively obvious. Blame wolves all you want, but the wolves packing a mechanical dowel flinging device are absolutely changing elk distribution, impacting bull to cow ratio's, bull age classes, etc.

 

[DFS]

about 20k in 1985, the first year I killed an elk with a bow in Montana, in 2021 60K...a 3 fold increase in less than 40 years.

The numbers went from 29kish in the mid-90's to 60k in 2021, with the steepest increase between about 1999-present. Just purely by chance, and mere coincidence, a direct correlation to when elk starting really piling onto private earlier and earlier.

Wolves weren't even reintroduced until 1995 into Yellowstone.

I can tell you for sure, that elk were starting to utilize low country more and more all through the 90's and early 2000's and that was mostly related to archery pressure. Even in areas with no wolves or very few wolves. I'm not forced to guess...

Here you go:

https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/aboutfwp/public-comments/draft-elk-management-plan/elk-plan.pdf

Archery HuntingCurrently, the archery season is six weeks long, beginning the first Saturday in September andextending into mid-October. Historically, archery hunting was offered to provide hunterrecreation rather than population management FWP 1989, FWP 2005. Although the level of elkharvest with archery equipment is notable, in many HDs, archery opportunity is still offeredprimarily to provide recreation more so than for population management.The number of hunters purchasing an archery stamp in Montana has steadily and substantiallyincreased over time (73% increase 2004-2021; Figure 4) which has resulted in increased archeryharvest. For example, total archery harvest increased 56% from 2004 to 2021 (Figure 5).Archery harvest varies by FWP administrative region and is still a small but increasingproportion of the overall harvest (Figure 6). Region 3 has the highest average number of elkharvested with archery equipment, whereas eastern Montana, specifically Regions 6 and 7,have the highest percentages of harvest attributed to archery (Table 1).The contribution of archery harvest to overall harvest becomes more prominent whenexamining bull harvest; antlerless harvest by archers appears to be minimal (<6% of totalantlerless harvest). Approximately 21–28% of nonresident bull harvest was during archeryseason (2015–2021), whereas 16–23% of resident bull harvest was from archers during thesame time. Nonresidents made a larger contribution to total archery harvest (29%) than theydid to total rifle harvest (17%).

Studies from the late 1980s indicated no consistent changes in elk distributions in response to archery hunting. More recently, effects on elk distributions havebeen found in response to archery hunting Conner et al. 2001, Vieira et al. 2003, Proffitt et al. 2013 & 2016a.Additionally, there are roads that are open during archery season and closed during rifleseason. These motorized routes and the increased use of them during archery season affect elksecurity during archery season. FWP recognizes that under specific circumstances, archery hunting can influence elk distribution if hunter densities are high enough.

You think, in region 3, where they have the highest average number of elk harvested with archery gear would correlate to the areas and "circumstances that can influence elk distribution"?

I'd think so, intuitively obvious. Blame wolves all you want, but the wolves packing a mechanical dowel flinging device are absolutely changing elk distribution, impacting bull to cow ratio's, bull age classes, etc.

Now do rifle. And look at the harvest stats. Good info Buzz.