Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[sclancy27]

I'm have high confidence that the incidental take of mule deer by elk hunters happens a lot in R3 and way more than people realize in R7, which is also addressed in the proposal.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm have high confidence that the incidental take of mule deer by elk hunters happens a lot in R3 and way more than people realize in R7, which is also addressed in the proposal.

And region 6, I've done it.

 

[mtmiller]

And region 6, I've done it.

I live and work in R6. I haven't killed a mule deer buck in R6 since 2003. Lots of folks think it is awesome though.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I'm have high confidence that the incidental take of mule deer by elk hunters happens a lot in R3 and way more than people realize in R7, which is also addressed in the proposal.

Always pays to have a pocket full of tags to use when you’re hunting elk in November.

Region 3 elk hunts..


Region 7 elk hunt..

 

[Eric Albus]

Did they tak at all about the “come home to hunt” tag sales? Maybe it’s not a needle mover but it seems like it’s awfully generous of FWP to sell those tags at such a discount.

The “come home to hunt “ and other (stupid) special interest tags are actually pretty insignificant. But if we could do away with them all I’d be for it

 

[Eric Albus]

I live and work in R6. I haven't killed a mule deer buck in R6 since 2003. Lots of folks think it is awesome though.

Dang good I’d say.
2003 was last Mule deer I killed too.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Moses himself chiseled into stone tablets that Montanans should have 6 weeks or archery hunting, both deer and elk - 5 weeks of rifle hunting also with the season for mule deer through Thanksgiving weekend. And all youth hunters 10-16 should have first crack at any deer the week school teachers have a conference. Let’s not forget about the new winter/rut blackpowder hunt either..

God
Given
Right

 

[Eric Albus]

Always pays to have a pocket full of tags to use when you’re hunting elk in November.

Region 3 elk hunts..
View attachment 326456
View attachment 326458
Region 7 elk hunt..
View attachment 326459

Buck in middle pic is oldest
One

 

[The Hedgehog]

Buck in middle pic is oldest
One

I think so - and the bottom one had the most potential (youngest)

 

[Eric Albus]

Little late back to the party, but I'll take this on.......I have done the research; I have been in those areas; I have hunted Eastern Montana the last 30 yrs; I understand the landscape and have talked to many biologists in other states. Have spent considerable time in Wyoming.

Your comparing Eastern Montana to the Snowy Range, Laramie Range and Sierra Madres?? Your comparing G and H in Wyoming to Eastern Montana??

G and H are de facto LE regions for non-residents; and combined with the ruggedness of all these areas, they naturally, severely, limit access. These areas are also not as productive mule deer herds as Eastern Montana; they are subjected to harder winters, and have had their winter range degraded by sub-divisions and all kinds of other human affects.

A 30 day October season in Eastern Montana, where human access is easy and deer are not migratory, is not going to have the same effect. Your neighboring States with similar habitat and October seasons is proof that easy access areas don't really benefit much from October seasons.

Have hunted many of the western Wyoming non resident and resident LE hunts (many times), they used to be fairly easy to get in the 90's and early 2000's; all LE, all very few tags given out, some with short October seasons, and they have been this way for decades; are the overall deer numbers suddenly spectacular because of it?? Nope......you should do your research.........because killing bucks in October vs November does nothing to increase the number of animals on the landscape other than a possible slight increase in bucks, even if that is achievable. And limiting the amount of bucks killed doesn't do anything to increase the overall herd size. Yup.....it does the trick for better buck to doe ratio's and it does the trick for better age classes, but, increasing the size of the overall herd?? No.......

What you guys are really wanting, and the "secret" here is you want better buck to doe ratios, but, you really want a better age structure. Thats a worthy goal. But there are rule structures that enable this......its called move it all to LE. But your wrapping the "we gotta save the mule deer herd" into a regulation scheme that is really about you wanting a better age class.

The problem is in Region 6 and Region 7 you had a devastating drought coupled with a hard winter coupled with high antlerless harvest that all hit at one time; that is what caused the current problem.......not shooting bucks in November...........

Region 7 Biologist quote in 2019:

“Mule deer are looking good,” Foster said, “Numbers are 5 percent below last year but still 27 percent above long-term average.”

Foster determines long-term average by tracing survey data back to the 1996-97 season and harvest figures back to 1976.

Surveys show mule deer population density in southeast Montana has been increasing since about 2012, when deer numbers began to rebound from a crash following back-to-back bitter winters. In 2015, deer reached the highest density recorded in the past three decades."

Region 6 Biologist quote in 2019:

Overall, numbers seen during spring surveys showed region-wide population at 56 percent above average. Due to increasing quota numbers, there may be surplus tags still available in some districts.

Winter mortality was variable across the region during the 2018-2019 winter but likely was minimal based on observations and reports. “A small amount of winter mortality was observed throughout the region,” says Outlook-area biologist Ryan Williamson, “with mostly fawns succumbing to the harsher late winter weather. Generally speaking, the mule deer appeared to have overwintered well.”

So, yes......I do talk to biologists and actually read facts and not internet conjecture..........these quotes from 2019 jive exactly with what we saw in those regions in 2019. The bottom line is you guys want older bucks.......like I said, worthy goal, then do what you need to do and get more LE units......but don't wrap "save the herd" around that goal.........

Do you work for the dept, by chance??
Winter of 10-11, winter kill in R 6, whitetail 50% plus, antelope 85%(maybe more), mule deer 85% plus. Numbers improved, 2021 mule deer were in good shape 670/630. December of 21 6-700 mule deer in greater bitter creek area. 4-500 Frenchman greater area.

Winter 23, 60% plus winter kill. December 24, mule deer 80-85% fewer in 670,630. Wonder how many went to Washington state in back of jacked up Chevy pickups?

One thing to be proud of…for the Fort Peck Reservation…..they now have MORE mule deer, and better BUCK mule deer than the rest of R6……..never thot id live long enuf to see this.

 

[Eric Albus]

I think so - and the bottom one had the most potential (youngest)

Agreed

 

[The Hedgehog]

Do you work for the dept, by chance??

Reminds me of in 2009 when asking a guy here “you work for Eastmans?”. I wasn’t as tactful maybe as you are.

 

[mtmiller]

Dang good I’d say.
2003 was last Mule deer I killed too.

I am being specific to R6.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I am being specific to R6.

Mtmiller hiding his stockpile of giant muleys..

 

[Eric Albus]

I am being specific to R6.

I wasn’t. I have not pulled the trigger since ‘03….2003 not 1903

 

[Ben Lamb]

Little late back to the party, but I'll take this on.......I have done the research; I have been in those areas; I have hunted Eastern Montana the last 30 yrs; I understand the landscape and have talked to many biologists in other states. Have spent considerable time in Wyoming.

Your comparing Eastern Montana to the Snowy Range, Laramie Range and Sierra Madres?? Your comparing G and H in Wyoming to Eastern Montana??

G and H are de facto LE regions for non-residents; and combined with the ruggedness of all these areas, they naturally, severely, limit access. These areas are also not as productive mule deer herds as Eastern Montana; they are subjected to harder winters, and have had their winter range degraded by sub-divisions and all kinds of other human affects.

A 30 day October season in Eastern Montana, where human access is easy and deer are not migratory, is not going to have the same effect. Your neighboring States with similar habitat and October seasons is proof that easy access areas don't really benefit much from October seasons.

Have hunted many of the western Wyoming non resident and resident LE hunts (many times), they used to be fairly easy to get in the 90's and early 2000's; all LE, all very few tags given out, some with short October seasons, and they have been this way for decades; are the overall deer numbers suddenly spectacular because of it?? Nope......you should do your research.........because killing bucks in October vs November does nothing to increase the number of animals on the landscape other than a possible slight increase in bucks, even if that is achievable. And limiting the amount of bucks killed doesn't do anything to increase the overall herd size. Yup.....it does the trick for better buck to doe ratio's and it does the trick for better age classes, but, increasing the size of the overall herd?? No.......

What you guys are really wanting, and the "secret" here is you want better buck to doe ratios, but, you really want a better age structure. Thats a worthy goal. But there are rule structures that enable this......its called move it all to LE. But your wrapping the "we gotta save the mule deer herd" into a regulation scheme that is really about you wanting a better age class.

The problem is in Region 6 and Region 7 you had a devastating drought coupled with a hard winter coupled with high antlerless harvest that all hit at one time; that is what caused the current problem.......not shooting bucks in November...........

Region 7 Biologist quote in 2019:

“Mule deer are looking good,” Foster said, “Numbers are 5 percent below last year but still 27 percent above long-term average.”

Foster determines long-term average by tracing survey data back to the 1996-97 season and harvest figures back to 1976.

Surveys show mule deer population density in southeast Montana has been increasing since about 2012, when deer numbers began to rebound from a crash following back-to-back bitter winters. In 2015, deer reached the highest density recorded in the past three decades."

Region 6 Biologist quote in 2019:

Overall, numbers seen during spring surveys showed region-wide population at 56 percent above average. Due to increasing quota numbers, there may be surplus tags still available in some districts.

Winter mortality was variable across the region during the 2018-2019 winter but likely was minimal based on observations and reports. “A small amount of winter mortality was observed throughout the region,” says Outlook-area biologist Ryan Williamson, “with mostly fawns succumbing to the harsher late winter weather. Generally speaking, the mule deer appeared to have overwintered well.”

So, yes......I do talk to biologists and actually read facts and not internet conjecture..........these quotes from 2019 jive exactly with what we saw in those regions in 2019. The bottom line is you guys want older bucks.......like I said, worthy goal, then do what you need to do and get more LE units......but don't wrap "save the herd" around that goal.........

It amazes me that people can read a document and come away with entirely different things.

The proposal is not simply about mule deer age structure, and I tend to agree that this proposal will not do much to grow trophy bucks. That isn't the intent of the October MD season so much as a way to distribute hunting pressure in a more equitable fashion so as to improve the distribution of deer & elk across the landscape. The conservative approach to antlerless hunting for both deer and elk are larger portions of the plan in terms of management prescriptions, yet every one wants to ignore those in favor of focusing on the buck age structure issue. While the doe issue has been curtailed for the 24/25 hunting seasons, there remains no guidance relative to keeping that approach in order to increase deer herds from the bottom of their ten-year cycle. If people simply focus on the split in the season, and not the totality of what is proposed, then the effect of the proposal will be lost. Most of the criticism I've seen of this proposal stems from the cherry picking of issues within, and not looking at the entire puzzle.

Montanans have been clear in the FWP surveys that they want to hunt mule deer every year, and that the antler size isn't a big issue to them. They also want to hunt mule deer in the rut. This proposal allows for all of that, even with a rut hunt if a district is under limited entry.

However, the cumulative effect of increased hunter days on public land is having a significant effect on problematic concentrations of wildlife on inaccessible private land, the quality of the opportunity is going down (20% success rate on elk on public land), and there are issues relative to deer herd health across the state along with population issues and yes, a desire to slightly increase the buck/doe ratio by moving the hunt out of the rut.

 

[shoots-straight]

So Just going to throw this out here again. I commend all the work and effort here BUT......

The Department, nor the scientists working on CWD want no more deer. Period!

Any proposal and management strategy will have mediocre results with less deer allowed to live. Lets address these things in the proper order.

 

[R.K.]

So Just going to throw this out here again. I commend all the work and effort here BUT......

The Department, nor the scientists working on CWD want no more deer. Period!

Any proposal and management strategy will have mediocre results with less deer allowed to live. Lets address these things in the proper order.

I’d say that if you let more mule deer doe survive on public, then the bucks wouldn’t have to travel as far between dense herds on private and thereby limit the spread that way.

 

[brockel]

I’d say that if you let more mule deer doe survive on public, then the bucks wouldn’t have to travel as far between dense herds on private and thereby limit the spread that way.

Also letting more does survive on public is going to pull more bucks from private to public during the rut. Then more can get killed to make fwp happy

 

[huntin24/7]

Also letting more does survive on public is going to pull more bucks from private to public during the rut. Then more can get killed to make fwp happy

A little reverse psychology. I like it.