Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[cgasner1]

Must've gotten out of the truck?

Can’t shoot my bow from it

 

[cgasner1]

"There won’t be as many deer shot in October. They are running on the shooters gonna shoot mentality. We as a group discussed that we could care less what someone fills their tag with. You will always have a last day of season and people will always fill their tag for that reason. But less deer will get killed because people won’t see them. Anyone on here telling you they see just as many bucks in October as during the last 2 weeks of November is a better hunter than 99% of us and we should all pull up a chair and try and learn from that person."


I would suggest you do some research in your neighboring States; SE Idaho is a good example; back in the day, that was a fantastic area to hunt mule deer both in age structure and buck populations. Those areas are currently down to an Oct 10-24th season structure and it has done little to stop the slide in the herds or increase buck age or buck to doe ratios.

Then you can go down into Wyoming; same thing; all kinds of General units that have shortened Oct hunts; go ask them how their mule deer populations are doing.

The October season would help some in far Western Montana were they mule deer are more migratory. But, the majority of the mule deer in Montana are in Central to Eastern Montana; open, prairie habitat with easy access. A 31 day general season in Oct isn't going to result in any appreciable increase in bucks or age structure.

The States right around you with very limited, shortened October seasons are not achieving that, so explain to me how your 31 day season will??

Did your group consult with any States that neighbor you to see how their shortened October seasons are doing?? Did you consult with any biologists?? Or, is all of your proposals just based on internet chat room conjecture??

If you see as many deer in October as November why fight this? Shouldn’t really matter.

 

[Nick87]

Can’t shoot my bow from it

Idk seen some guys do it in New Mexico.

 

[Schaaf]

Did you consult with any biologists??

Yes, several. And they all agreed, 30 days of October vs 30 days of November would result in less deer harvested.

 

[INMT]

But, the majority of the mule deer in Montana are in Central to Eastern Montana; open, prairie habitat with easy access.

I sometimes mule deer hunt in November in the same spot I antelope hunt in October. The bucks are exceptionally more difficult to find in October than anytime in November, rut or not. If you know the country you can find them, but they are generally solo, holding tight in very thick cover for the whole day. Come November those same bucks are running around in the middle of a field at noon with stars in their eyes. I've also never seen a bowhunter besides my buddy and myself deer hunting there in October(maybe because it's hard?). I know more rifle hunters will show up but it's still a totally different ballgame then the rut. Maybe after 5+ years of an October season, people will begin to pattern bucks better. At least in the small area I know well, I foresee less bucks being killed in October.

 

[muleydude]

If you see as many deer in October as November why fight this? Shouldn’t really matter.

Because it puts you on a slippery slope. First a 31 day season in Oct. That doesn’t achieve the goals; Then it gets shortened. That doesn’t achieve your results. Then you look at things like APR’s; That doesn’t work. Then eventually your stuck with a 10-14 day October hunt with APR’s and it doesn’t do anything to improve the situation and the hunting experience is miserable because you have concentrated all the hunting pressure into 10 days. EVERY other State around you has tried this. It doesn’t do anything meaningful. And then the chance of actually going back to how it’s done now will never happen. The current 5.5 week season spreads hunting pressure, allows for pre rut hunting and rut hunting; This has worked well for a long time and created an experience in Montana like no other State. The resource can handle it. What got you into trouble is aggressive doe tags coupled with a severe drought, hard winter, and several years of poor fawn recruitment. You got rid of the doe tags. So that was the big step. You just have to hold the dept accountable to that in the future. If Mother Nature does her thing and cooperates for a few yrs and I guarantee you that herds will bounce back. You have to come to grips though they will never be like there were “back in the day”. Those days are over. I’d personally make your goal to be “never again shall a mule deer do be shot on public land”. That’s an attainable goal that will make real change on the landscape.

If shortened October seasons make that big of change as everybody on here thinks, then you should all be applying to your neighboring States as all
Of them already have that and the hunting should be fantastic. But it isn’t.

Yes, several. And they all agreed, 30 days of October vs 30 days of November would result in less deer harvested.

Which ones?

 

[cgasner1]

Because it puts you on a slippery slope. First a 31 day season in Oct. That doesn’t achieve the goals; Then it gets shortened. That doesn’t achieve your results. Then you look at things like APR’s; That doesn’t work. Then eventually your stuck with a 10-14 day October hunt with APR’s and it doesn’t do anything to improve the situation and the hunting experience is miserable because you have concentrated all the hunting pressure into 10 days. EVERY other State around you has tried this. It doesn’t do anything meaningful. And then the chance of actually going back to how it’s done now will never happen. The current 5.5 week season spreads hunting pressure, allows for pre rut hunting and rut hunting; This has worked well for a long time and created an experience in Montana like no other State. The resource can handle it. What got you into trouble is aggressive doe tags coupled with a severe drought, hard winter, and several years of poor fawn recruitment. You got rid of the doe tags. So that was the big step. You just have to hold the dept accountable to that in the future. If Mother Nature does her thing and cooperates for a few yrs and I guarantee you that herds will bounce back. You have to come to grips though they will never be like there were “back in the day”. Those days are over. I’d personally make your goal to be “never again shall a mule deer do be shot on public land”. That’s an attainable goal that will make real change on the landscape.

If shortened October seasons make that big of change as everybody on here thinks, then you should all be applying to your neighboring States as all
Of them already have that and the hunting should be fantastic. But it isn’t.




Which ones?

A restructuring to move deer season out of a November rut is a far cry from let’s just start cutting seasons shorter. It’s still a very long season especially considering what most other western states offer for length. Maybe you’re right and this won’t be enough guess what that doesn’t mean season would need shortened again. They could decide to go a pick your weapon or many other options. The shorter season is a effect of trying to cram 5 pounds of shit into a 10 pound bag because of the length of all of the seasons.

 

[Schaaf]

Which ones?

Man, I am not going to tell you that. You can choose to believe it or not, you have clearly made your decision. I don’t care.

 

[DFS]

I don’t feel like I’m giving up a thing with this proposal with the current “opportunity” I’ve experience mule deer hunting the last 10-15 years. It’s hard to watch the mule deer bucks getting mowed down when they are in zombie mode. I’m still yet to hear a compelling argument against an October mule deer season. If we kill just as many bucks in October, who cares, at least it will be hunting and not shooting.

 

[huntin24/7]

Huge first step . Great . But I don’t see any less deer getting killed in October . Just be younger and smaller deer shot if that’s possible . Every spike on public will get shot

Every deer will be at least more difficult to kill in October than November. As far as bucks, it’s actually beneficial that more guys would be willing to blast the first spike or forky. Right now, I feel like people tend to really cherry pick and hammer the 2 year old nice up and comers over the forkies and older less attractive 3 points which is much easier to do during the current whole month of November.

 

[muleydude]

Man, I am not going to tell you that. You can choose to believe it or not, you have clearly made your decision. I don’t care.

Because when you put forth professional proposals to the dept you cite those opinions to validate your point.

 

[perma]

Send it. What's the next steps for this proposal?

 

[BuzzH]

Because when you put forth professional proposals to the dept you cite those opinions to validate your point.

Snowy Range, Laramie Range, Sierra Madres, all have October seasons and very high buck to doe ratio's as well as excellent age structures.

Prior to last winter, the Greys, Winds, Tetons, etc. (regions G and H) had the same.

October seasons are why.

I suggest you do some research and talking to biologists in other states...and listen to the seasons updates that are available on-line for all the regions in Wyoming.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I’ve heard multiple times that states with Oct seasons aren’t seeing improvements on their buck/doe ratios.

What are the buck/doe ratio in the units in WY and ID with October seasons? Are they 6/100 like many MT general units or are they at a higher ratio to begin with and those state’s biologists are being proactive in their protection of the resource?

I can see there not being a large statistical increase in buck/doe ratios from switching from Nov to Oct harvest if you are starting with limited tags or restricted seasons and higher buck/doe ratios to begin with.

If the buck/doe ratio is at 24/100 and it increases to 28/100 that’s a small percentage increase. If it’s 6/100 and increases four points to 10/100 that’s a 40% increase. The starting values matter a lot.

 

[Elktrack]

Snowy Range, Laramie Range, Sierra Madres, all have October seasons and very high buck to doe ratio's as well as excellent age structures.

Prior to last winter, the Greys, Winds, Tetons, etc. (regions G and H) had the same.

October seasons are why.

I suggest you do some research and talking to biologists in other states...and listen to the seasons updates that are available on-line for all the regions in Wyoming.

Those areas also don’t have volume of hunters like R7 for example. Some of that is due to access and some is a result of restricted numbers of hunters

 

[BuzzH]

Those areas also don’t have volume of hunters like R7 for example. Some of that is due to access and some is a result of restricted numbers of hunters

All those areas are general for residents and pretty high nonresident general tags as well.

I would argue they're pretty comparable and still doesn't negate the fact that the October seasons are the reason for the high buck to do ratio's and age structure.

We could turn those units into Montana real easy...by extending the season to end the Sunday after Thanksgiving. Fact.

I don't know why they call it common sense, when it's apparently not real common.

 

[perma]

I’ve heard multiple times that states with Oct seasons aren’t seeing improvements on their buck/doe ratios.

What are the buck/doe ratio in the units in WY and ID with October seasons? Are they 6/100 like many MT general units or are they at a higher ratio to begin with and those state’s biologists are being proactive in their protection of the resource?

I can see there not being a large statistical increase in buck/doe ratios from switching from Nov to Oct harvest if you are starting with limited tags or restricted seasons and higher buck/doe ratios to begin with.

If the buck/doe ratio is at 24/100 and it increases to 28/100 that’s a small percentage increase. If it’s 6/100 and increases four points to 10/100 that’s a 40% increase. The starting values matter a lot.

One of the regions that Buzz mentioned, a unit I'm applying for, has 36:100 with a mid to late October season. Would probably be considerably higher if it wasn't for CWD. Probably would be lower if they made this a November hunt like some other general units.

Not sure that I've ever read that high of a ratio in some MT deer units i've researched, though I'm not the expert for MT.

Edit - that region, by the way, is below WGF objective. but not for the reasons of the season dates.

 

[Elktrack]

All those areas are general for residents and pretty high nonresident general tags as well.

I would argue they're pretty comparable and still doesn't negate the fact that the October seasons are the reason for the high buck to do ratio's and age structure.

We could turn those units into Montana real easy...by extending the season to end the Sunday after Thanksgiving. Fact.

I don't know why they call it common sense, when it's apparently not real common.

I hear you there. I was trying to say that the combination of season dates coupled with limiting numbers has worked pretty well in those locations.
I’m of the opinion that both are necessary.
As you mention, those are still general tags and not true LE units. It’s doable

 

[rmyoung1]

The current 5.5 week season spreads hunting pressure, allows for pre rut hunting and rut hunting; This has worked well for a long time and created an experience in Montana like no other State. The resource can handle it.

In my opinion, this strategy has not worked well for a long time. I do agree that the Montana experience is certainly like no other. Where else can you pound rutting forkies? But the idea that it is sustainable in the 21st century and synonymous with sound management is dubious at best. In all seriousness, what part of the current Montana mule deer experience are you afraid of losing if a proposal like this one were instituted?

 

[Eric Albus]

Because it puts you on a slippery slope. First a 31 day season in Oct. That doesn’t achieve the goals; Then it gets shortened. That doesn’t achieve your results. Then you look at things like APR’s; That doesn’t work. Then eventually your stuck with a 10-14 day October hunt with APR’s and it doesn’t do anything to improve the situation and the hunting experience is miserable because you have concentrated all the hunting pressure into 10 days. EVERY other State around you has tried this. It doesn’t do anything meaningful. And then the chance of actually going back to how it’s done now will never happen. The current 5.5 week season spreads hunting pressure, allows for pre rut hunting and rut hunting; This has worked well for a long time and created an experience in Montana like no other State. The resource can handle it. What got you into trouble is aggressive doe tags coupled with a severe drought, hard winter, and several years of poor fawn recruitment. You got rid of the doe tags. So that was the big step. You just have to hold the dept accountable to that in the future. If Mother Nature does her thing and cooperates for a few yrs and I guarantee you that herds will bounce back. You have to come to grips though they will never be like there were “back in the day”. Those days are over. I’d personally make your goal to be “never again shall a mule deer do be shot on public land”. That’s an attainable goal that will make real change on the landscape.

If shortened October seasons make that big of change as everybody on here thinks, then you should all be applying to your neighboring States as all
Of them already have that and the hunting should be fantastic. But it isn’t.




Which ones?

Come to R6 or 7 November 10-30 and tell me a 5.5 week season spreads hunters out. The ease of rut hunting concentrates hunters, end of discussion.


what you’re lobbying for looks like “let’s just stay status quo, it’ll be fine”.

If we stay status quo and do nothing we wind up at permits way sooner than we had to.