Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[antlerradar]

FWP will label this group as trophy hunters and say they just want opportunities. I think this group and their proposal needs serious consideration I think we (all people who hunt and love Montana) can still have plenty of opportunities with the proposed seasons/structure

If the goal was just trophies the proposal would have been strict LE in all units in the state.

 

[antlerradar]

I think the battle with FWP will be their “hunter satisfaction surveys” that are used as a crutch. IIRC roughly 60% of resident hunters were satisfied with their deer hunts and around 70% said that rut hunting and the opportunity to hunt mule deer bucks on thanksgiving were important to them. To the respondents credit though I don’t remember antlerless hunting being heavily supported. In addition to the above, the new scorched earth management of killing bucks in the name of CWD will likely factor into the decision also. @antlerradar - when is the first meeting for the fwp MD committee?

May 6-8. I think it is posted on FWP's web sight.

Is that the survey where the no answers were added into the satisfied percentage? Bad move on FWP's part.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

If the goal was just trophies the proposal would have been strict LE in all units in the state.

I’d prefer just LE mule deer every district without all the other who-ha

 

[antlerradar]

I’d prefer just LE mule deer every district without all the other who-ha

You are not the only one, I hear LE state wide from plenty of hunters. I am not dead set apposed myself.
Revenue wise, LE is likely a non starter with FWP.

 

[Stifler]

If the goal was trophies the proposal would have been strict LE in all units in the state.

I'm genuinely curious what the goal is, I personally don't see any objectives talked about in the plan. What are we trying to restore. If its x now and was y when it was the good days... I have to see what that objective looks like. What buck to doe ratio, what fawn recruiting efforts will look like,.. other's I have seen valid concerns forest service roads etc... And just the BS ones on fb nr etc..... and Im not trying to shoot shots or anything... Im genuinely curious. Im not attacking your guys plan... I like parts of it.. but I really have concerns about some things. If you guys want to change things up for the state vs the 3 regions that need help... I really think your gonna have to have some laid out goals for each region. And I personally don't see any in this plan. Any maybe I'm just overthinking this. But I really just have the few things I said that worry me. Lack of research still. No set objectives. A unintentional FOMO effect on the east.

Is this the new stone writing? Or is it flexible, and if it fails is it going to reevaluate after every year or two? I dunno I guess I can pick on it all different ways and I'm really not trying to. But I really wanna make sure I understand. And that you guys also understand what implications this may have. Intent I think is great. But I think it's a very basic season structure for as complicated of a world we live in now. I get your trying to keep it simple... but simple ideas are what get us in trouble, one could argue the simple ideas what got us into the current predicament we are in now. And Ben was the only one to even consider replying besides the famous hedgehog for yet a another attempt at a roast. Then your attempt at well ya better stay married. These are all very valid concerns. Yet no one on the board wants to somewhat answer them. I dunno I'm not trying to pick. I prolly just need to hit the hay and stop looking at this one for a few days and re evaluate.

 

[antlerradar]

I'm genuinely curious what the goal is, I personally don't see any objectives talked about in the plan. What are we trying to restore. If its x now and was y when it was the good days... I have to see what that objective looks like. What buck to doe ratio, what fawn recruiting efforts will look like,.. other's I have seen valid concerns forest service roads etc... And just the BS ones on fb nr etc..... and Im not trying to shoot shots or anything... Im genuinely curious. Im not attacking your guys plan... I like parts of it.. but I really have concerns about some things. If you guys want to change things up for the state vs the 3 regions that need help... I really think your gonna have to have some laid out goals for each region. And I personally don't see any in this plan. Any maybe I'm just overthinking this. But I really just have the few things I said that worry me. Lack of research still. No set objectives. A unintentional FOMO effect on the east.

Is this the new stone writing? Or is it flexible, and if it fails is it going to reevaluate after every year or two? I dunno I guess I can pick on it all different ways and I'm really not trying to. But I really wanna make sure I understand. And that you guys also understand what implications this may have. Intent I think is great. But I think it's a very basic season structure for as complicated of a world we live in now. I get your trying to keep it simple... but simple ideas are what get us in trouble, one could argue the simple ideas what got us into the current predicament we are in now. And Ben was the only one to even consider replying besides the famous hedgehog for yet a another attempt at a roast. Then your attempt at well ya better stay married. These are all very valid concerns. Yet no one on the board wants to somewhat answer them. I dunno I'm not trying to pick. I prolly just need to hit the hay and stop looking at this one for a few days and re evaluate.

The marriage comment was maybe a poorly worded way to say you have a great wife, Many wives would not tolerate three to four weeks of hunting in a two months. The vast majority of hunters are going to have one week of vacation and weekends dedicated to hunting.

As for goals, I will tackle that when I don't have to glue my eyes open.

 

[Mountain Man]

First off, thanks to everyone involved for taking the time and effort for sitting down and putting this forward. I fully agree with the intent of what this proposal is aiming for and yes, it's time for some kind of change. However, there are a few things that concern me.

First is not having seasons run concurrently. Hear me out on this. I believe it's a blessing in disguise in that it makes you pick elk or deer and cuts the pressure down on each species. Under this structure, it would allow folks to go all out on mulies during October and then all out again on elk in November. I'm more of an elk hunter myself and I do enjoy deer hunting, but it's not my main focus. With this change, I'd be one of the hunters putting much more effort into chasing mulies. I know we'd save some from the elk hunters not shooting a bonus muley, but not to the point that it'd increase pressure from folks putting their sole focus on them.

Second is the October season. I do think this would drive elk onto private before November. The weather's nice in October and rifle season is a calling for MT hunters, so the vehicle traffic, sounds of rifles, and hiking through the hills would do more harm than good in my opinion.

Third is the archery changes. I think our current season structure is a pretty good setup and don't think it's what's contributing to the problems. If anything, I'd be for cutting it off Oct 10th or so, like what some others have mentioned in here earlier.

I do support significantly limiting the rut hunt, that's the crux of the issue in my opinion. However, instead of moving it all into October, I'd rather see all units just cut out the last two or three weeks, like what they did this year in 410/426, then go LE or primitive weapon only after that. ND does something similar to this and seems to be a good way to do it I believe.

I also support picking your area, that's the other crux of the issue. However, with that, I think we'd be better off capping the areas at some point otherwise it could end up like the new elk rule making you only hunt your district, which from what I've seen has drastically increased hunting pressure, forcing folks to hunt through the pressure or just stay home.

Anyways, like I said at the top, I'm thankful for this group putting this proposal together and while I fully agree with the intent of it, I just have some different viewpoints on the "how" of it all.

I agree with essentially everything you mentioned and I didn’t see anyone else acknowledge your points so I wanted to emphasize them. To your first point, I think the splitting of the Deer/Elk seasons into different months will increase hunter days afield, which is counter to one of the stated goals of the proposal.

For your second point, it is crazy to me that the structure would have rifle hunters running around everywhere during October chasing mule deer and pushing elk off of public before a November rifle season. That will have a huge negative impact on elk hunting success rates. Then we will have a 1000 plus post thread on elk hunting opportunity mismanagement and be opining about the good old days.

It boggles my mind that if the proposed changes go through, there would be zero bull elk hunting in October. That is one of the best months to experience a bull elk hunt for rifle and MT would just be skipping over it to offer a worse experience in November. I don’t care about mule deer enough to get behind that approach.

Here would be my recommended season dates:

Basic Season Structure:
September 1st - September 30th: Archery for whitetail, mule deer and elk

October 1 - October 10: Traditional Muzzleloader Season general elk

October 1 - October 31: Antlered Mule Deer. Doe harvest by permit only

October 20 - November 30: General Whitetail and Elk season. Liberal cow seasons on private land, permitted/licensed on public with very tight limitations to reduce hunter pressure.

December 10-25: Additional Cow only season.

I think it would be okay to have elk/deer hunters in the field at the same time. Colorado has been doing that for decades so I don’t buy the argument that you need to decouple those species to save deer.

 

[antlerradar]

I think it would be okay to have elk/deer hunters in the field at the same time. Colorado has been doing that for decades so I don’t buy the argument that you need to decouple those species to save deer.

The difference between CO and MT is that CO does not have any OTC mule deer licenses. The number of hunters that have third and forth season mule deer rut tags and an elk license at the same time is likely low. In Montana almost every hunter has both tags. FWP has long relied on the law of diminishing returns to distribute hunters. I am skeptical of this approach even in ideal conditions. The law of diminishing returns has zero chance of working when one species is thriving and one is struggling.

 

[R.K.]

I agree with essentially everything you mentioned and I didn’t see anyone else acknowledge your points so I wanted to emphasize them. To your first point, I think the splitting of the Deer/Elk seasons into different months will increase hunter days afield, which is counter to one of the stated goals of the proposal.

For your second point, it is crazy to me that the structure would have rifle hunters running around everywhere during October chasing mule deer and pushing elk off of public before a November rifle season. That will have a huge negative impact on elk hunting success rates. Then we will have a 1000 plus post thread on elk hunting opportunity mismanagement and be opining about the good old days.

It boggles my mind that if the proposed changes go through, there would be zero bull elk hunting in October. That is one of the best months to experience a bull elk hunt for rifle and MT would just be skipping over it to offer a worse experience in November. I don’t care about mule deer enough to get behind that approach.

Here would be my recommended season dates:

Basic Season Structure:
September 1st - September 30th: Archery for whitetail, mule deer and elk

October 1 - October 10: Traditional Muzzleloader Season general elk

October 1 - October 31: Antlered Mule Deer. Doe harvest by permit only

October 20 - November 30: General Whitetail and Elk season. Liberal cow seasons on private land, permitted/licensed on public with very tight limitations to reduce hunter pressure.

I think it would be okay to have elk/deer hunters in the field at the same time. Colorado has been doing that for decades so I don’t buy the argument that you need to decouple those species to save deer.

December 10-25: Additional Cow only season.

6 weeks of elk? No elk would be left on public within 2 years.

 

[Mountain Man]

The difference between CO and MT is that CO does not have any OTC mule deer licenses. The number of hunter that have third and forth season mule deer rut tags and an elk license at the same time is likely low. In Montana almost every hunter has both tags. FWP has long relied on the law of diminshing returns to distrbute hunters. I am skepitcal of this approach even in ideal conditons. The law of diminshing returns has zero chance of working when one spiecies is thriving and one is struggling.

I hear you, but it is not overly difficult to pick up a 2nd season deer tag in the draw in an OTC rifle elk unit and hunt both at the same time. Yes, 3rd and 4th season are much harder.

I guess what I was trying to say is that I fully support removing rut hunting mule deer under a general tag, but it would be great if a family who can only take one week off a year to go hunting together could hunt both elk and mule deer that last week of October. Would that continue the decimation of the deer herds?

 

[Mountain Man]

6 weeks of elk? No elk would be left on public within 2 years.

Keep it at 5 or even reduce it to 4 weeks then, but start it October 20th (or whichever Saturday is close to this date each calendar year).

 

[rogerthat]

I hear you, but it is not overly difficult to pick up a 2nd season deer tag in the draw in an OTC rifle elk unit and hunt both at the same time. Yes, 3rd and 4th season are much harder.

I guess what I was trying to say is that I fully support removing rut hunting mule deer under a general tag, but it would be great if a family who can only take one week off a year to go hunting together could hunt both elk and mule deer that last week of October. Would that continue the decimation of the deer herds?

You just kind of torpedoed you and @souix33 point on more hunter days with this comment. The vast majority of hunters have x number of days to hunt. It will be up to them to decide how to allocate them between October muleys or November elk. Sure there will be a few people that put in a few more days but you miss the point that currently archery starts early September and general ends weekend after thanksgiving. As a resident I already hunt all through out that period.

 

[Eric Albus]

I think the battle with FWP will be their “hunter satisfaction surveys” that are used as a crutch. IIRC roughly 60% of resident hunters were satisfied with their deer hunts and around 70% said that rut hunting and the opportunity to hunt mule deer bucks on thanksgiving were important to them. To the respondents credit though I don’t remember antlerless hunting being heavily supported. In addition to the above, the new scorched earth management of killing bucks in the name of CWD will likely factor into the decision also. @antlerradar - when is the first meeting for the fwp MD committee?

Let Rob Arnaud and I craft the next survey. We will get the answers we want too.

 

[jimh406]

I’m not opposed, but I would like to see a succinct list of what problems the proposals are trying to solve. Ideally, they’d be reasons for each proposal. I don’t think it’s a given that every hunter has the same goals.

 

[Eric Albus]

My hope is that we come up something workable to stave off LE permits for mule deer bucks for a few years.

 

[cgasner1]

I agree with essentially everything you mentioned and I didn’t see anyone else acknowledge your points so I wanted to emphasize them. To your first point, I think the splitting of the Deer/Elk seasons into different months will increase hunter days afield, which is counter to one of the stated goals of the proposal.

For your second point, it is crazy to me that the structure would have rifle hunters running around everywhere during October chasing mule deer and pushing elk off of public before a November rifle season. That will have a huge negative impact on elk hunting success rates. Then we will have a 1000 plus post thread on elk hunting opportunity mismanagement and be opining about the good old days.

It boggles my mind that if the proposed changes go through, there would be zero bull elk hunting in October. That is one of the best months to experience a bull elk hunt for rifle and MT would just be skipping over it to offer a worse experience in November. I don’t care about mule deer enough to get behind that approach.

Here would be my recommended season dates:

Basic Season Structure:
September 1st - September 30th: Archery for whitetail, mule deer and elk

October 1 - October 10: Traditional Muzzleloader Season general elk

October 1 - October 31: Antlered Mule Deer. Doe harvest by permit only

October 20 - November 30: General Whitetail and Elk season. Liberal cow seasons on private land, permitted/licensed on public with very tight limitations to reduce hunter pressure.

December 10-25: Additional Cow only season.

I think it would be okay to have elk/deer hunters in the field at the same time. Colorado has been doing that for decades so I don’t buy the argument that you need to decouple those species to save deer.

It’s easy to write up without people that have issues with your season structure. Muzzy season is where it is due to how the law was written so you can’t move it to that time of year

 

[mtmuley]

I’m not opposed, but I would like to see a succinct list of what problems the proposals are trying to solve. Ideally, they’d be reasons for each proposal. I don’t think it’s a given that every hunter has the same goals.

I would hope most hunters would be concerned with healthier mule deer herds and better mule deer hunting. mtmuley

 

[cgasner1]

Maybe we can get thanksgiving moved into October it may be easier than changing a season structure

 

[Straight Arrow]

I think it would be okay to have elk/deer hunters in the field at the same time. Colorado has been doing that for decades so I don’t buy the argument that you need to decouple those species to save deer.

It seems you don't accept the gravity of the mule deer situation across Montana. Presently Colorado is much different from Montana with regard to mule deer. The reality is that it will take drastic changes to improve Montana's issues. Then there will be the opportunity to go back to hunting elk with a deer tag in your pocket as a secondary plan.

 

[antlerradar]

As for goals, I will tackle that when I don't have to glue my eyes open.

Distribute hunting pressure. Currently hunting pressure is concentrated in the two and a half weeks centered on peak rut. I understand that some people will hunt more days but this added pressure will be spread out. The concentrating effect of the rut hunt is the big issue.

Hunt deer when the largest number of bucks are on public land and accessible to hunters. I am not that familiar with Western MT, but I am pretty sure that the farther down the mountain you are the more likely the land will be in private hands. The later the season the more likely the deer are going to be lower on the mountain and on private land, I am sure @MTTW would understand this better than I.
In eastern Montana the big populations of does live on the more productive river and creek bottoms. Amost all of the river and creek bottoms are privately owned. Bucks are leaving public land to rut with the does on private and the number is not a small number. In 97 I located a great buck on Public land with four other respctable bucks. I got the best buck the second week of the season. The outfitter that had just leased the private river bottoms got the other four when they left the public to rut.
As others have said, hunters are never regaining the private land access hunters enjoied in the 80's, With the changing of landownership from generational ranches to out of state ownership access to private land is only going to get worse. The solution is to move the season to when more of the deer are living on land that does have permenant access.