Montana FWP Seeking Applicants For Elk Advisory Group

[406dn]

It is a baby step in the right direction. Perhaps that will make taking other steps possible, as we go forward.

I moved to Montana 41 years ago this August. Two things shocked me right away after moving here. The first was the lack of a sales tax. I thought that was universal. The second was finding out the rifle season for elk and deer was five weeks. I thought then, wow that is a damn long time to get to hunt with a rifle.

I think spitting the rifle season into two periods and having to choose only one is another way to improve the hunting experience.

It would be acceptable to me to make all bull hunting on a permit basis and have cows open to general hunting in units deemed over objective. That is likely not palatable to most thou.

 

[DFS]

It is a baby step in the right direction. Perhaps that will make taking other steps possible, as we go forward.

I moved to Montana 41 years ago this August. Two things shocked me right away after moving here. The first was the lack of a sales tax. I thought that was universal. The second was finding out the rifle season for elk and deer was five weeks. I thought then, wow that is a damn long time to get to hunt with a rifle.

I think spitting the rifle season into two periods and having to choose only one is another way to improve the hunting experience.

It would be acceptable to me to make all bull hunting on a permit basis and have cows open to general hunting in units deemed over objective. That is likely not palatable to most thou.

There are so many ways to improve things. Nonresidents tags do need to be cut and a lot of nonresident tags NEED to be hunted on private. It’s not hard to see. Resident hunters need to be realistic in how things have changed as well.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Kudos to those members of the advisory committee who are willing to advance necessary and unpopular options for change.
Reduction of “opportunity” is not something anyone desires but a clear eyed understanding that current policy is unsustainable and harmful to the resource is the first steps toward better health of the resource and sustainable opportunity.

No hunter/conservationist should advocate for opportunity that is unsustainable and harmful to the resource.

It is my opinion that a focus on fighting to “retain opportunity at any cost” often clouds an understanding of on the ground realities of the diminishing quality and quantity of resources available to the public land hunter.

 

[Nameless Range]

It is ludicrous to think you can do nothing and expect different results.

Whoever wrote that statement deserves a kick in the junk for not seeing the bigger picture.

Though I think BHA is quite wrong in the forcefulness of their opposition, I think we should hold on from the junk kicking just yet.

BHA are still one of the few outfits out there speaking up for the DIY Hunter, and in the past have shown they can respond to criticism from their membership and alter their positions. The muzzleloader thing comes to mind.

One thing about picking your weapon, is it isn’t obvious how successful it would be. particularly across the varied districts of Montana. I think if we were to try it we need to basically put a sunset date on it to reassess after a certain period of time how well it worked. FWP cannot be trusted to cease with things that don’t work.

Lastly, there are some very levelheaded people who don’t like this idea, and I am interested to hear why.

 

[JEL]

Though I think BHA is quite wrong in the forcefulness of their opposition, I think we should hold on from the junk kicking just yet.

BHA are still one of the few outfits out there speaking up for the DIY Hunter, and in the past have shown they can respond to criticism from their membership and alter their positions. The muzzleloader thing comes to mind.

One thing about picking your weapon, is it isn’t obvious how successful it would be. particularly across the varied districts of Montana. I think if we were to try it we need to basically put a sunset date on it to reassess after a certain period of time how well it worked. FWP cannot be trusted to cease with things that don’t work.

Lastly, there are some very levelheaded people who don’t like this idea, and I am interested to hear why.

I don’t disagree but think that statement is a gross knee jerk reaction without much forethought.

 

[DFS]

Though I think BHA is quite wrong in the forcefulness of their opposition, I think we should hold on from the junk kicking just yet.

BHA are still one of the few outfits out there speaking up for the DIY Hunter, and in the past have shown they can respond to criticism from their membership and alter their positions. The muzzleloader thing comes to mind.

One thing about picking your weapon, is it isn’t obvious how successful it would be. particularly across the varied districts of Montana. I think if we were to try it we need to basically put a sunset date on it to reassess after a certain period of time how well it worked. FWP cannot be trusted to cease with things that don’t work.

Lastly, there are some very levelheaded people who don’t like this idea, and I am interested to hear why.

I can’t think of a good reason why. Pick your season archery rifle or now muzzleloader. Plenty of opportunity to get out in the field still. We don’t need 12 weeks of everyone piling in.

 

[TheJason]

I think we should hold on from the junk kicking just yet.

I was using slight hyperbole. But not much b

 

[Gerald Martin]

I was using slight hyperbole. But not much b

The idea that @JLS would include hyperbole in a post is in itself ludicrous…

Hunt Talk Man would approve of hyperbolic junk kicking.

 

[TheJason]

@Nameless Range here are some thought I wrote in response to a PM from a committee member.

The original idea for that proposal was choose your unit. Based on the feedback we got from the sounding board it changed to choose your weapon. The reasoning was that in order to choose your unit there would have to be quotas on each unit so one didn’t get over hunted. People didn’t like the idea of essentially having every unit being a draw. The public feedback was much more in favor of starting with a choose your weapon and then seeing how those changes affect hunter distribution.

I pushed for having to choose your weapon for both deer and elk So that archery elk hunters wouldn’t be able to rifle deer hunt. The group shot me down as they don’t think we need to make suggestions for deer season. My concern was that elk don’t know what tag you have in your pocket and therefore most people will still be in the field during rifle season, even if they are only deer hunting.

Anyway, that’s why we went with choose your weapon.

My responses

Just my simple thoughts:

1. Deer and elk hunting should be completely decoupled, to include season dates.
2. Choosing your weapon will undoubtedly increase the quality of experience during the archery elk season.
3. Choosing your weapon still doesn’t address hunter distribution. You could still hunt any unit you want, save LE units. The Gravellies and Little Belts will continue to get pounded into oblivion.
4. How can a unit get over hunted in a choose your unit scenario any more than it can now? There is no limitation as it currently stands?

Hard to say what the end outcome will be, but given the pushback this will create I’m not sure the benefits will make it worth the effort.

 

[shoots-straight]

No hunter/conservationist should advocate for opportunity that is unsustainable and harmful to the resource.

But there are thousands of elk that need killing, right? "Sustainability" isn't something our department manages for. Right now it's all out war on Elk.

I'm seeing Bio's advocating for reductions in Elk Objectives in HD's that are largely public lands, or have large public land holdings. IMO the reason is sportsman don't want to give up "opportunity" for a cow, and landowners complaining they don't want elk in their pasture. Even if they run cattle on public lands most of the summer.

No matter how it turns out we are not managing for the wildlife but managing hunters.

That will not turn out very well and miss the whole reason so much effort is being made here.

We need to get the Elk killed where they aren't welcome (to a reasonable point), and limit pressure where it's to much.

59,000 NR licenses are a good start.

 

[DFS]

You should have to choose your weapon deer or elk. It’s time to cut opportunity. Nonresidents should not expect tags every year or every other. Residents will need to be cut too.

 

[Nameless Range]

@Nameless Range here are some thought I wrote in response to a PM from a committee member.


My responses

Just my simple thoughts:

1. Deer and elk hunting should be completely decoupled, to include season dates.
2. Choosing your weapon will undoubtedly increase the quality of experience during the archery elk season.
3. Choosing your weapon still doesn’t address hunter distribution. You could still hunt any unit you want, save LE units. The Gravellies and Little Belts will continue to get pounded into oblivion.
4. How can a unit get over hunted in a choose your unit scenario any more than it can now? There is no limitation as it currently stands?

Hard to say what the end outcome will be, but given the pushback this will create I’m not sure the benefits will make it worth the effort.

I can’t argue with your logic.

Maybe the real reason I wrote that was that I feel sorry for the folks at BHA. I think they’re good folks and in terms of representing their membership, are damned if they do or don’t on this issue

 

[Gerald Martin]

I see it as a multi- pronged approach.

1. A reduction of overall pressure on public land with an emphasis on reducing the harvest of cows on public.

2. An increase of private land cow harvest at the same timeframe when public land cow harvest is reduced. I am supportive of private land cow only hunts that take place in October before the general rifle season.
This can serve to reduce elk populations on private and encourage the movement of elk from private to public. A drastic reduction of antlerless tags on public will allow for cows to select for public lands as sanctuary rather than inaccessible private. This is going to take years of redistributed hunting pressure to change the generational habits of elk that select private property over public because of too much pressure on public.

 

[TheJason]

I can’t argue with your logic.

Maybe the real reason I wrote that was that I feel sorry for the folks at BHA. I think they’re good folks and in terms of representing their membership, are damned if they do or don’t on this issue

I think they are good folks too, I just think so many folks miss the bigger picture.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think they are good folks too, I just think so many folks miss the bigger picture.

I think some folks are conflating equal opportunity/access to public trust resources with sustainable resource management policies.

Those are two separate issues and can be fought for concurrently.

 

[Big Fin]

I sent them my large number of comments. Five of the members got back to me on my suggestions.

Adopting "pick your weapon" doesn't do much for the causes of why we have too few elk on public land. Too much pressure on public land is why there aren't as many elk on public as we want, and why many say there are too many elk on private land. Too much pressure can be measured by too many hunters that day and also by too many days of the year when elk are being pressured by hunters.

If I was told we had to make a choice between "pick you region/district" or "pick your weapon," I would be on the side of "pick your region/district" and decouple the season dates in every district, for every species, and restructure those based on what is best for wildlife, not what is easiest for the person not inclined to read a new set of regulations.

Thus, one of my comments was "pick your region/district." And when the mule deer working group gets formed, if it ever does, I will copy and paste that same comment to them.

Neither option, "pick your weapon" or "pick your region/district," would be as high on my list as lowering pressure on public land by getting rid of shoulder seasons, public land cow tags, and having such long seasons that all the FWP research shows habituates elk to select private lands.

 

[runningmt]

Regardless of the change, which is beyond the point of necessity, I would like to see mandatory harvest reporting. Having an accurate set of data on hunter numbers, harvest stats, success rates seems like a first step to me. Data is essential, without it, how do you know what to measure?

I also don’t think we need to re-invent the wheel, other western states have dealt with these same issues (Nevada, Utah, Arizona)…..do we consult with these Agencies? Or are we too proud to ask?

 

[JM77]

When choose your weapon comes up in Wyoming, it's usually the diehard bowhunters that favor it. We have month long archery seasons and less than that, usually two weeks, for rifle.

Buzz always seems to clear my head on this issue by saying that he's all for it if season dates for gun and bow are rotated every other year. I tend to agree. Either way, I'm thankful for what I've had in my life for opportunity, as there's no doubt that's going to change here in Wyoming too.

 

[TheJason]

One thing about picking your weapon, is it isn’t obvious how successful it would be. particularly across the varied districts of Montana. I think if we were to try it we need to basically put a sunset date on it to reassess after a certain period of time how well it worked. FWP cannot be trusted to cease with things that don’t work.

This is a valid point. I think it’s also important to have a very defined purpose of what the regulation is intended to achieve. If you don’t, how do you measure the success or failure.

Maybe making ANY change is a good first step, because lack of it is a lions share of the reason we’re talking about this.

 

[shoots-straight]

Pick your weapon will have very little effect on management of wildlife.

It manages humans.

We use to have A-7 cow tags available. You could exchange your bull tag for a cow only tag. Then there would be a late hunt when the elk congregated on winter range in late January or Feb.

Back in those days we had bull to cow ratio's that were double what we have today.

Pressure was light during general seasons to a high degree and it saved bulls.

The man in charge of licensing in Helena hated them because of the extra work involved for him. His name. Hank Worsech. You might have heard of him.