Montana Forests at risk!!

[BuzzH]

cjcj, your entitled to your opinion, and I wont likely change your mind, but you're wrong that environmentalists have caused the fuel loading and fire problems we're facing now.

The American Public is to blame, we're all to blame. Ever since I can remember, and still to this day, Smoky bear campaigns have run amuck. Nobody, or very few, like to see large wildfires, even though they are completely natural and needed for forest health. Thats how the Forest Ecosystems evolved, with fires of varying degrees. Take away fire, you get problems.

We're not only naive, but egotystical to think we can manipulate forests over the long run and win. That point is coming in loud and clear right now.

The politicians that are whining about enviro's causing this have their heads up their collective asses, and wouldnt know a healthy forest if they were standing in one.

The condition of the woods has not gotten to the point it has in the last few years of the enviro-greenies winning a couple battles. Its taken years, nearly 100 years for the woods to get into the condition they are now.

I think that our intentions of stopping wildfires, while well intended, was one of the biggest mistakes we've made in Forest Management. Other than farming/ranching I believe that fire suppression has changed the Western landscape more than any other factor. Thats not because of enviros, its because of the demands of the public...we're talking loggers, farmers, foresters, teachers, the American Public, etc. etc. etc. etc. We've all been suckered by Smoky Bear.

Only now, when a few million acres, and some homes go up in smoke do people start realizing, "Hey, we got a problem." Yeah, well no shit. And with that comes the finger pointing and the blame game.

GW, Judy Martz, Jane Hull, and all the other politicians that blame environmentalists are hypocrits, and damn big ones at that. I wouldnt waste a squirt of piss for political misfits like that if they were in the middle of a wildfire, much less waste my vote on them. They're out of touch with reality.

 

[cjcj]

well i couldn`t have said it better [were all to blame] overpopulation, greed, etc. and actualy i have to agree with most of what you stated, but we can`t and won`t go back to the good old day`s, i for one wish we could in many way`s, the development of cabin`s , rural residences,and such all make it imperative that we fight to control fires. and just for the record JANE HULL was a total disaster for the state of arizona, and if you ever hear a good word from me about her, that mean`s i`ve totaly lost it and you may feel free to put a bullet in my head!

 

[Hangar18]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We've all been suckered by Smoky Bear<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buzz - I agree with most of what you wrote. One point of clarification though and I don't think it is important as far as this discussion. Wasn't the Smokey the Bear campaign started when people began recreating in the outdoors more, and completely directed at preventing human caused fires?

 

[BuzzH]

Hangar, the message has been basically that ANY wildfire, is bad, whether its man-caused or not.

Thats pretty much a view held by everybody that I know, except by the few who dont believe fire is a bad thing (I think fire is a good thing).

Look at the news reports, the paper headlines, etc. whenever theres a wildfire...you know with titles like, "10,000 acres scorched" "wildfires ravage the west" and on and on.

The American Public has been suckered and Smoky Bear is a big part of spreading the misconception that fire is bad.

I'm not saying torch every last acre of Forest land in the West, I'm just saying that fire is a big part of the natural cycle and we've severly disrupted the balance. When it makes sense, I'd say let fires burn and restore some balance, apply more fire to the landscape with prescribed fire, etc.

What wont fix the problem is a bunch of chickenshit politicians blaming different groups.

 

[whitedeer]

Hanger......you are totally correct on the "Smokey the Bear" campaigns. They were, and still are, directed at the 9 out of 10 wildfires caused by the human element. Although originally directed more towards kids, the education is turning more towards adults as needing the education for the prevention of wildfires.....smoking, campfires, electrical problems, equipment causes (brakes, bearings, mufflers,) etc., etc., etc.

 

[whitedeer]

And Buzz......the "new" Smokey the Bear campaigns are also aimed towards educating the public that "prescribed" fires are "good" fires.

 

[BuzzH]

Whitedeer, 9 out of 10 fires in the west are not human caused, not even close to that. I dont have the facts right in front of me, but I'd say 9 out of 10 fires I fought from 1988-1994 were lightning caused.

 

[whitedeer]

Buzz.....there is a whole world out there bigger than yours. For the years you mentioned, there were approximately 79,792 wildfires that were naturally caused, and 960,360 wildfires caused by human error.

 

[BuzzH]

Ok, well hows this then, in the interior west where I fought fires for 7 years, in the following states: New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, and Southern California the majority of ignitions were lightning caused. I know I live pretty much in a fish bowl, also known as the Northwestern portion of the United States.

I realized when I wrote the reply, I should have stated there are more fires caused in WESTERN STATES by lightning than by human sources.

In the midwest, south and east, its more likely that wildfires are caused by humans.

All better now?

 

[RockyDog]

cjcj, based on your posts im betting your the type that has your mind made up regardless of the facts, but heres a link anyways.

http://www.wildmontana.org/largestfires.htm

I have a map of the fires at home showing how much of the heavily roaded areas burned, but no way to put it on here.

One very good area i elk hunt has some old logging roads in it. The old growth areas burned a nice mosaic, mostly in the understory, and is great elk hunting today, 2 years later. The land in the same drainage near the roads is toast.

Also, as you would say cjcj, we are "LOCKED OUT" of this area and cant drive in there, so naturally the hunting is AWESOME.

 

[BuzzH]

Whitedeer, from NIFC:

"In the West, 60 percent to 70 percent of wildfires usually are begun by lightning or other natural causes, according to Pat Durland, a fire prevention specialist at the National Interagency Fire Center."


Any questions?

 

[Troy Jones]

I don't care if you log it or burn it. As long as the trees are gone, so we can graze it! Graze it! Graze it!

 

[cjcj]

hey ROCK DOG where did i say we are LOCKED OUT! you are confused, and i do have my opinion`s and they are subject to change, but if there right why change them? i ask question`s and then i listen, you might try it, i`m still waiting for you to explain how less fuel [logging] burn`s worse than more fuel! how about putting it in your own word`s and educate me.

 

[RockyDog]

Forget it, i dont like to bang my head against hard things.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-06-2003 15:41: Message edited by: RockyDog ]</font>

 

[cjcj]

rock it`s ok to cop out, but thank`s for the link anyway i did enjoy it. but i guess were probably talking about two differant thing`s anyway.

 

[ELKCHSR]

LOL!!!
This thread wouldn't be complete if I didn't jump in and add my opinions also!!!

To add a little input on why fires burn hotter in a clear-cut!
With all of the slash and burnable material that is left over after a clear cut being right on the ground or close to, and usually dried out already from no moisture content, it burns hotter than some thing that is green and standing with air all around it, this makes every thing able to be burned at one time rather than in segments, i.e. grasses, low-medium-tall shrubs, and then your trees...
The air movement also play's a factor in this, when it is completely opened up, the air currents will move freely across the space as where if you have some thing that has breaks in it, as in trees and tall brush, this inhibits air movement to an extent.
Buzz and a few others hit the nail right on the head, what has happened in the past is water under the bridge and we can't do any thing to change that. So now what we have left to us is the use of logging, thinning and fire, the later being the fastest and the cheapest tool at our disposal and we all know every thing runs on the bottom dollar. But it will also be the most devastating. Logging will help as long as it is done properly; clear cutting and laying to waste large expanses are not the way to go about this either. Logging cannot be the cure all either, as it doesn't do much to curtail some of the plant species that need the fire to propagate or control measures for it's spread, or places where it is not economically feasible. It can help though, by thinning and controlled burns, then let the wild fires clean out every thing that can't be gotten fast enough. I won't fool myself into believing that every one will believe this is the best approach, but it is the best one that I have concluded and heard to date. Except for a little smoke and fly ash, it is the only answers that have been proposed that will work...