Montana fish wildlife and parks deer management

[brockel]

I don't think money is really the biggest issue. The deer tag cost $16, and most of us would happily pay that much just in non-refundable drawing fees for an LE tag if it were to go to a draw (I'd be happy paying 3x that just for the current OTC tag). However, I don't think we are at that stage yet where we need to rescind the OTC tags and go to a draw.

What we need to do first is take a serious look at all the B tags being sold! Drop this B tag BS and raise prices on the A tag to cover the loss. The increased cost of an A tag might keep a few from buying It, but I doubt it would matter that much, and the few that drop out likely aren't the committed hunters going deep after decent deer, but rather those shooting does and forkies from the road anyway.

Totally agree the b tag need to be addressed. I wasn't talking money from resident tags because us residents don't pay our fair share and I think a raise in resident tag pricing should be done. I was talking about if Montana went to draw they would lose a lot of nonresident cash just from the reduction of tags.

You say we are not to that stage yet but from the decline we have had in the last ten years im scared to see what the next ten years brings. Im not saying that the draw system is the only way to go but Montana seems to just keep pumping the tags out particularly b tags. Just going off memory but I believe there was 7500 b tags dished out in region 7. I wish they would put stipulations on them to where they can only be used on private ground or at least most of them that way.

 

[whiskeydog]

I wasn't talking money from resident tags because us residents don't pay our fair share and I think a raise in resident tag pricing should be done. I was talking about if Montana went to draw they would lose a lot of nonresident cash just from the reduction of tags.

It's already a draw system for non-res, so as long as they don't reduce the number of those tags being issued, there is no cash lost.
Seeing as how they are now selling out, I guess I can't argue with the high prices for non-res tags. The supply/demand of these tags is pretty much equal. I would still like to see higher pricing for residents.

 

[Doublecluck]

How is the logging in Montana now compared to 1950? I notice multiple western states had peak deer populations around 1950-60, which correlates with peak logging on national forests in the western United States.

Check out how this history of national forest policy compares to mule deer population history

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO...tory.asp/RK=0/RS=yl10Vyv9AYXsvOwqNGLvxvKhkpo-

 

[joelweb]

Available browse is clearly declining in many places, but I have had numerous biologists tell me that when the going gets tough in winter, elk displace deer. Elk can eat pretty much whatever they want and they'll occupy the best habitat during the toughest times. Many of the best remaining deer units in the West have low elk populations.

With this said, there are other things going on that affect mule deer.

 

[brockel]

It's already a draw system for non-res, so as long as they don't reduce the number of those tags being issued, there is no cash lost.
Seeing as how they are now selling out, I guess I can't argue with the high prices for non-res tags. The supply/demand of these tags is pretty much equal. I would still like to see higher pricing for residents.

Yes I know nonresident is a draw but last couple years it has been near 100% draw. Now I don't know if it's because the number of nonresidents hunting Montana has dropped or has Montana pumped out more tags?

 

[1_pointer]

I'm in the Big Fin and Snowymountaineer camp...

On public lands, "range health" is "better" than any time since it's been public lands. Those conditions favor elk over mule deer, IMO.

 

[brockel]

I'm in the Big Fin and Snowymountaineer camp...

On public lands, "range health" is "better" than any time since it's been public lands. Those conditions favor elk over mule deer, IMO.

I would agree that is probably the case out west but does not explain the decline out east here where we don't have elk

 

[1_pointer]

I would agree that is probably the case out west but does not explain the decline out east here where we don't have elk

Just too many getting killed...

 

[brockel]

Just too many getting killed...

Seen a lot more hung in fences dead this year than normal too. Wonder if the snow was giving them a hard time to get over the fences or just freak thing

 

[BuzzH]

I'm in the Big Fin and Snowymountaineer camp...

On public lands, "range health" is "better" than any time since it's been public lands. Those conditions favor elk over mule deer, IMO.

Yep, I'm in that camp as well.

Elk don't out-compete deer, they just occupy the most favorable habitat. If its about elk out-competing deer, then why have the mule deer numbers continued to decline when elk are probably at the lowest population levels in much of Western Montana than they've been for the last 25 years? I also don't believe whitetails out-compete mule deer either.

What I find odd, is that in Montana, the FWP manages via scorched earth policy...and its one extreme to the other. Not to mention they are totally reactive rather than proactive.

Look at this thread, by what's been said here, the ONLY two options even suggested for mule deer management are Limited Quota or 11 weeks OTC unlimted from September through November.

Most states realize that there are a boatload of options that exist between unlimited OTC tags/11 weeks and strict LQ...apparently that slipped under the radar of the MTFWP.

 

[BigHornRam]

How is the logging in Montana now compared to 1950? I notice multiple western states had peak deer populations around 1950-60, which correlates with peak logging on national forests in the western United States.

Check out how this history of national forest policy compares to mule deer population history

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO...tory.asp/RK=0/RS=yl10Vyv9AYXsvOwqNGLvxvKhkpo-

In timbered mule deer habitat in the west, opening up the canopy improves the production of favored schrubs, but it also increases the ability of hunters to harvest these deer. More hunter restrictions and more quality forest management would benefit mule deer populations big league IMO.

 

[BuzzH]

Whether we can agree on the causes of the decline of mule deer or not, I would think we could agree that the best way for FWP to arrest the decline would be to reduce hunter harvest at least in the short term. I believe there are areas in the west that you could close the hunting season on mule deer and their numbers would not increase significantly. If I was king we would lose the last 2 weeks of mule deer season statewide starting today.

I would lose all mule deer hunting in the month of November.

 

[bigsky2]

The sad thing is some of the new biologists that are starting their careers in this time of low deer numbers think this is the norm and don't realize how many deer the habitat is capable of holding. One biologist I know on the eastern side of the state said they counted 8 deer per square mile in a certain area and "that is a good healthy number given that type of country". In years past you would see 5x as many deer in that area.

 

[1_pointer]

The sad thing is some of the new biologists that are starting their careers in this time of low deer numbers think this is the norm and don't realize how many deer the habitat is capable of holding. One biologist I know on the eastern side of the state said they counted 8 deer per square mile in a certain area and "that is a good healthy number given that type of country". In years past you would see 5x as many deer in that area.

Likewise, it could be argued that some of the "glory days" of mule deer populations in the past were small, artificially inflated blips...

PS- Mule deer populations and domestic sheep populations have a strikingly similar pattern...

 

[HalfAce]

Yes I know nonresident is a draw but last couple years it has been near 100% draw. Now I don't know if it's because the number of nonresidents hunting Montana has dropped or has Montana pumped out more tags?

Combo tag numbers stayed the same. About 6 years ago the price went up, don't remember how much but it was a good jump. Lots of NR guys dropped out of the draws. Every year since then the tags haven't sold out in the main draw but it's gaining traction again and maybe the deer combo may sell out this season, but the elk/deer combo will probably go under-subscribed. That wasn't happening prior to 6 years ago.

 

[MTGomer]

Not to mention they are totally reactive rather than proactive.

Root cause of the issue is identified in bold, above. Blame whatever you want for the decline, but this form of management is what perpetuates it.

 

[8andcounting]

I agree and I believe that's why North Dakota does a good job by managing districts because deer numbers are so different from area to area rather than huge regions like Montana. How many square miles are in region 7 alone?

North Dakota has it setup good with districts but do nothing to manage the deer at all . The nd gf has 0 idea how many deer there is . Honestly I've never seen a more screwed up department in my life than nd gf . Fwp isn't close to as bad .

 

[8andcounting]

Combo tag numbers stayed the same. About 6 years ago the price went up, don't remember how much but it was a good jump. Lots of NR guys dropped out of the draws. Every year since then the tags haven't sold out in the main draw but it's gaining traction again and maybe the deer combo may sell out this season, but the elk/deer combo will probably go under-subscribed. That wasn't happening prior to 6 years ago.

In 2010 I paid $343 for deer combo , in 2011 when it jumped it was like $542 or so . Big game went for $643 to around 900 and has been climbing a little every year

 

[MTGomer]

North Dakota has it setup good with districts but do nothing to manage the deer at all . The nd gf has 0 idea how many deer there is . Honestly I've never seen a more screwed up department in my life than nd gf . Fwp isn't close to as bad .

Deer quality in the badlands far exceeds that of public land in Montana. No comparison.

 

[8andcounting]

Deer quality in the badlands far exceeds that of public land in Montana. No comparison.

Yeh in 2/3 units for Muleys yes I agree . As far as white tails in ND our gf wrecked it