Montana Deer Management- If I were King for a day.

[brocksw]

OK. It's randy's propsal to a T or no change at all. Good luck making changes MT.

My apologies for using my experience working directly with this same issue in ND and thinking that could be of use to my neighbors to the west.

 

[Schaaf]

It’s worth noting that in the proposal Bowhunters also have the entire rest of the year outside of the season to walk around the hills with their bow in hand and not kill anything

 

[Deleted member 48080]

OK. It's randy's propsal to a T or no change at all. Good luck making changes MT.

That's not what I'm saying, I'm just having a very hard time following what you disagree with. I started this thread with the idea of shooting holes in this plan, and whether or not the majority of hunters on here would prefer a season structure like proposed compared to the current regulations.

So you would want to add a later archery season, and get rid of the either/or mechanism with limited entry and general?

 

[brocksw]

It’s worth noting that in the proposal Bowhunters also have the entire rest of the year outside of the season to walk around the hills with their bow in hand and not kill anything

I resent that.

 

[Schaaf]

I resent that.

Haha, you’re the outlier.

 

[Irrelevant]

Do you mind explaining why?
Currently every single hunter in Montana can hunt our rifle season in late November when the deer are congregated in wintering grounds. Under this proposal a smaller number of hunters would be hunting at a time of year when the deer are more distributed.

The way I see your proposal is that you are definitely going to reduce pressure by making rifle hunters choose whitetail in the rut vs mule deer in Oct and by eliminating LE applicants from either pool. Those are genius ideas and I love them; wouldn't change a thing.

But coming from a state where I already have to pick my weapon type, I'm used to looking at seasons and trying to evaluate which I'm going to have the best success at (success being both enjoyment and harvest). Even when I've picked archery tag, I've never hunted the Sept season, unless you want to shoot a doe close to the road, it's a frustrating and futile affair. I'm sure everyone on HT either is or knows someone/s who would enjoy and succeed in a Sept archery deer season. And maybe just being able to shoot a deer while also pursuing elk is enough. But I've found the deer are even more spread out and a lower densities in Sept than in Oct. So even if I enjoy being outside in Sept (part of that success equation) it's a struggle to find bucks and almost impossible to sneak in on them with it's 90 degs and everything is Lays potato chip crispy. With all that being said, I'd venture to bet that only a very small fraction of people actually pick the archery season, and the vast majority are pushed back into your rifles options above.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

The way I see your proposal is that you are definitely going to reduce pressure by making rifle hunters choose whitetail in the rut vs mule deer in Oct and by eliminating LE applicants from either pool. Those are genius ideas and I love them; wouldn't change a thing.

But coming from a state where I already have to pick my weapon type, I'm used to looking at seasons and trying to evaluate which I'm going to have the best success at (success being both enjoyment and harvest). Even when I've picked archery tag, I've never hunted the Sept season, unless you want to shoot a doe close to the road, it's a frustrating and futile affair. I'm sure everyone on HT either is or knows someone/s who would enjoy and succeed in a Sept archery deer season. And maybe just being able to shoot a deer while also pursuing elk is enough. But I've found the deer are even more spread out and a lower densities in Sept than in Oct. So even if I enjoy being outside in Sept (part of that success equation) it's a struggle to find bucks and almost impossible to sneak in on them with it's 90 degs and everything is Lays potato chip crispy. With all that being said, I'd venture to bet that only a very small fraction of people actually pick the archery season, and the vast majority are pushed back into your rifles options above.

Okay, so I guess misread your earlier posts. You do think that the October rifle season would have less pressure than our current season, but with adding a late archery season it would reduce pressure more. Correct?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The split between mule deer general and w-tail general is where the reduction is crowding is going to be the most significant.

Good point.

I'm not seeing how adding a shit-load of days to archery is going to sweeten the pot...very few archery hunters in Montana are archery only guys. They're 2 season hunters that will drop the bow in the trash if they have to choose one or the other.

No different than if you had a "traditional only muzzleloader tag"...very few would choose the December only season.

I see it the exact same way other than I think you could get people choose archery over gun if the pot was sweetened. I am one of those primarily gun hunters. I avoided archery like the plague because of too many hobbies already until i started elk hunting with a rifle in NW montana. The rut was the sweetened pot that made me buy a bow. No way id ever choose archery deer tag for 20 days DURING THE ELK RUT vs 30 days with a rifle outside of the elk rut. Give me some time with a bow during the rut, especially for whitetail, and i'm taking that option.

 

[BuzzH]

The way I see your proposal is that you are definitely going to reduce pressure by making rifle hunters choose whitetail in the rut vs mule deer in Oct and by eliminating LE applicants from either pool. Those are genius ideas and I love them; wouldn't change a thing.

But coming from a state where I already have to pick my weapon type, I'm used to looking at seasons and trying to evaluate which I'm going to have the best success at (success being both enjoyment and harvest). Even when I've picked archery tag, I've never hunted the Sept season, unless you want to shoot a doe close to the road, it's a frustrating and futile affair. I'm sure everyone on HT either is or knows someone/s who would enjoy and succeed in a Sept archery deer season. And maybe just being able to shoot a deer while also pursuing elk is enough. But I've found the deer are even more spread out and a lower densities in Sept than in Oct. So even if I enjoy being outside in Sept (part of that success equation) it's a struggle to find bucks and almost impossible to sneak in on them with it's 90 degs and everything is Lays potato chip crispy. With all that being said, I'd venture to bet that only a very small fraction of people actually pick the archery season, and the vast majority are pushed back into your rifles options above.

Nearly 100% of the archery hunters are currently hunting both seasons now. Even if only 3-5K hunters choose the archery only tag, its 3-5k less hunters hunting during rifle season.

I see no downside...

 

[Deleted member 48080]

Good point.

I see it the exact same way other than I think you could get people choose archery over gun if the pot was sweetened. I am one of those primarily gun hunters. I avoided archery like the plague because of too many hobbies already until i started elk hunting with a rifle in NW montana. The rut was the sweetened pot that made me buy a bow. No way id ever choose archery deer tag for 20 days DURING THE ELK RUT vs 30 days with a rifle outside of the elk rut. Give me some time with a bow during the rut, especially for whitetail, and i'm taking that option.

So I obviously worded my original post very poorly to cause so much confusion.

You would be able to hunt whitetail with a bow through all of November with the Whitetail only tag.

 

[brocksw]

That's not what I'm saying, I'm just having a very hard time following what you disagree with. I started this thread with the idea of shooting holes in this plan, and whether or not the majority of hunters on here would prefer a season structure like proposed compared to the current regulations.

So you would want to add a later archery season, and get rid of the either/or mechanism with limited entry and general?

I'm not really advocating for anything or disagreeing with anything. I'm just saying, if I was the MT bowhunters assoc, I would not accept that plan that you put forth (but maybe they will?).

But unless your plan has broad support from nearly every other person and group in MT, you will have to contend with the wishes and desires of other groups and other members of the public. That's what makes this process difficult. Concessions/compromises will need to be made. The bow hunters will have their input. Hunting club X will have input. BHA, Hell creek, lots of groups and members of the public will likely have input on such a substantial change to the way they've always done things. Each with different priorities and points of view. I think it would be wise to build in concessions if you seriously want your proposal to be the foundation of a change or frame some things in a way to incentivize support, so everyone feels as if they're getting something out of the deal.

Again, maybe I'm wrong....not the first time and certainly won't be the last.

 

[sclancy27]

@Randy11. I'm not going to argue that your proposal isn't sound, because it is. Unfortunately, it has a 0% chance of going from where we currently are to the season structure you have outlined immediately. Should it be the goal in 10 years, yes probably. But we are going to need to do a step-by-step approach to get there.

And I don't care about the Sept 1-20 for deer, I'm not hunting elk then anyway.

 

[BuzzH]

So I obviously worded my original post very poorly to cause so much confusion.

You would be able to hunt whitetail with a bow through all of November with the Whitetail only tag.

Right, but NOT with the general archery tag valid for Sept. 1-20 for either species correct?

 

[The Hedgehog]

@Randy11's plan is great in a dreamy kind of way. But we're really at the point of STOP THE BLEEDING.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

So I obviously worded my original post very poorly to cause so much confusion.

You would be able to hunt whitetail with a bow through all of November with the Whitetail only tag.

I think the problem was primarily with my reading comprehension and thoughts taking me away from the original layout. Thanks for lining me out.

That said, I'm not a fan of the whole whitetail balance. No whitetail hunting at all between 9/20 an 11/1? that's going to turn people off. I think a longer archery season, including part of the rut, and a shorter rifle season, would be a good way to protect some bucks and get more people on board from an opportunity basis.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not really advocating for anything or disagreeing with anything. I'm just saying, if I was the MT bowhunters assoc, I would not accept that plan that you put forth (but maybe they will?).

But unless your plan has broad support from nearly every other person and group in MT, you will have to contend with the wishes and desires of other groups and other members of the public. That's what makes this process difficult. Concessions/compromises will need to be made. The bow hunters will have their input. Hunting club X will have input. BHA, Hell creek, lots of groups and members of the public will likely have input on such a substantial change to the way they've always done things. Each with different priorities and points of view. I think it would be wise to build in concessions if you seriously want your proposal to be the foundation of a change or frame some things in a way to incentivize support, so everyone feels as if they're getting something out of the deal.

Again, maybe I'm wrong....not the first time and certainly won't be the last.

This is EXACTLY why nothing will ever change, nobody wants to give up anything or sacrifice anything unless its "those other guys" that are giving something up.

In true fashion it sure as hell isn't about the resource, that's not even a consideration.

This has been the problem since 1957...

 

[brocksw]

@Randy11 So, in this hypothetical scenario, after I (MTBA) rejected the current proposal, you offer a compromise and say,"ok, we'll give you a Nov 15- Nov 30th as an archery mule deer season in addition to Sept 1-Sept 20". Now, there's incentive for me as an archer to bypass that rifle tag. Now I'm on board with that plan.

Just a possibility I'm trying to flesh out. It may not happen, but I would be prepared for it since there is an organization in MT thats mission statement is to advocate for bow hunters and bow hunting.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

I'm not really advocating for anything or disagreeing with anything. I'm just saying, if I was the MT bowhunters assoc, I would not accept that plan that you put forth (but maybe they will?).

But unless your plan has broad support from nearly every other person and group in MT, you will have to contend with the wishes and desires of other groups and other members of the public. That's what makes this process difficult. Concessions/compromises will need to be made. The bow hunters will have their input. Hunting club X will have input. BHA, Hell creek, lots of groups and members of the public will likely have input on such a substantial change to the way they've always done things. Each with different priorities and points of view. I think it would be wise to build in concessions if you seriously want your proposal to be the foundation of a change or frame some things in a way to incentivize support, so everyone feels as if they're getting something out of the deal.

Again, maybe I'm wrong....not the first time and certainly won't be the last.

No, you're absolutely right. This is a proposal that is dead on arrival.

Like the title said, it's what I would do if I were king for a day and was trying to do best by the resource and the hunters of Montana that I interact with.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

Right, but NOT with the general archery tag valid for Sept. 1-20 for either species correct?

Correct.

Edit to add- That would be a really reasonable compromise to add the ability to hunt whitetail during archery to the general whitetail tag though.

 

[BuzzH]

@Randy11 So, in this hypothetical scenario, after I (MTBA) rejected the current proposal, you offer a compromise and say,"ok, we'll give you a Nov 15- Nov 30th as an archery mule deer season in addition to Sept 1-Sept 20". Now, there's incentive for me as an archer to bypass that rifle tag. Now I'm on board with that plan.

Just a possibility I'm trying to flesh out. It may not happen, but I would be prepared for it since there is an organization in MT thats mission statement is to advocate for bow hunters and bow hunting.

Right, because mule deer, that are in the tank, need more pressure in November...

Again, no concern for the resource.

You know how many November archery mule deer hunts Wyoming has?

None...and archery hunters here kill some huge bucks in September and rifle hunters kill some huge bucks in early October. Plus, we still have OTC general tags for Residents.

Why?

Because maybe just maybe the resource is put a rung or two further up the ladder over hunter opportunity and don't have people pounding on them non-stop from Sept-November.

Oh, and they (deer and elk) also, surprisingly enough, actually use and stay on public land...so strange.