Montana 2025 Legislative Session

[Elktrack]

So the wolf numbers are "in check" in Idaho? What numbers might those be?

I've never been a fan of hunting much of anything year round.

Not saying they are in “check” necessarily. But liberal seasons haven’t been detrimental or caused them to be relisted. IMO it’s helping keep the numbers down.

I just think that we as hunters seem to act like anytime there’s something like this that we are gonna get hammered by the antis and would be better off without these seasons rather than implementing them. It’s almost like we are running scared all the time and afraid of what’s going to happen if we cross a line that the opposition doesn’t approve of.

It doesn’t matter how aggressively they are managed they will oppose it.

 

[FREAK]

They should apply the same logic to MD. IF buck: doe ratios are greater than 45:100 in the region rut hunting is open. If less than 45:100, season ends in October. I could get behind something like that.

 

[mtmiller]

Or it’s a good way to keep the numbers in check. They didn’t go back on the ESA when Idaho opened up seasons.

See, my first thought was horribilis.

 

[rogerthat]

Not saying they are in “check” necessarily. But liberal seasons haven’t been detrimental or caused them to be relisted. IMO it’s helping keep the numbers down.

I just think that we as hunters seem to act like anytime there’s something like this that we are gonna get hammered by the antis and would be better off without these seasons rather than implementing them. It’s almost like we are running scared all the time and afraid of what’s going to happen if we cross a line that the opposition doesn’t approve of.

It doesn’t matter how aggressively they are managed they will oppose it.

There’s a threshold especially taken in totality of all the states liberalizing their season that does put things at risk. Seems like a game of chicken to me. Eventually the chicken gets eaten by the fox playing that game. I would hate to see them relisted. What’s wrong with status quo? There numbers aren’t increasing in Montana I don’t believe.

 

[Elktrack]

Yes, except we are no where near the threshold. As a matter of fact the threshold is further away now more than ever. They are further from endangered than they were 20 years ago. Certainly not at risk.

If you are satisfied with the status quo and don’t think there’s an issue, right on, I respect your position. I feel differently. Like I said, my point is more about the fact that hunters are always cowering to the opposition in fear of losing management practices when the truth is that they don’t want any of it.

I don’t want to derail this thread into another wolf fight. That never ends well. I see your point and understand why you feel the way you do. All good bud

 

[rogerthat]

Yes, except we are no where near the threshold. As a matter of fact the threshold is further away now more than ever. They are further from endangered than they were 20 years ago. Certainly not at risk.

If you are satisfied with the status quo and don’t think there’s an issue, right on, I respect your position. I feel differently. Like I said, my point is more about the fact that hunters are always cowering to the opposition in fear of losing management practices when the truth is that they don’t want any of it.

I don’t want to derail this thread into another wolf fight. That never ends well. I see your point and understand why you feel the way you do. All good bud

I’m a lover not a fighter. Thanks for the response. I see your point too

 

[BuzzH]

Yes, except we are no where near the threshold. As a matter of fact the threshold is further away now more than ever. They are further from endangered than they were 20 years ago. Certainly not at risk.

If you are satisfied with the status quo and don’t think there’s an issue, right on, I respect your position. I feel differently. Like I said, my point is more about the fact that hunters are always cowering to the opposition in fear of losing management practices when the truth is that they don’t want any of it.

I don’t want to derail this thread into another wolf fight. That never ends well. I see your point and understand why you feel the way you do. All good bud

I don't think sound management and regulated hunting is cowering...but, whatever.

There is no limit to the stupid, and I'm just waiting for a photo of a batch of dead wolf pups at a den. Those optics will be pretty fantastic for the image of hunting.

 

[Elktrack]

I don't think sound management and regulated hunting is cowering...but, whatever.

There is no limit to the stupid, and I'm just waiting for a photo of a batch of dead wolf pups at a den. Those optics will be pretty fantastic for the image of hunting.

Who determines what sound management is? Clearly you and I see it differently on this particular issue. I’d argue that it’s sound management.

 

[cgasner1]

Who determines what sound management is? Clearly you and I see it differently on this particular issue. I’d argue that it’s sound management.

Hate to say it but @BuzzH is pretty on point with that look what happened last year from one idiot and a snow mobile. I’d much rather keep what we got than have them protected again

 

[Hunting Wife]

Who determines what sound management is? Clearly you and I see it differently on this particular issue. I’d argue that it’s sound management.

I hope you aren’t arguing that shoving no-holds-barred killing into people’s faces is sound management? That has nothing to do with management and everything to do with shoving a big FU down people’s throats. If you doubt that will have repercussions, ask the Dems how DEI worked out for them.

 

[BuzzH]

Who determines what sound management is? Clearly you and I see it differently on this particular issue. I’d argue that it’s sound management.

Likely so and I would argue it's NOT sound management based on about everything I know about sound management and what that looks like.

Also, we can disagree all we want, but like I said I think you're going to have a hard convincing anyone a den full of dead wolf pups is anything close to sound management.

Its almost assured that its going to happen sooner or later.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Hate to say it but @BuzzH is pretty on point with that look what happened last year from one idiot and a snow mobile.

Not sure if you are referring to the idiot with the tortured wolf in the bar, but yeah those looks are not good for the hunting legacy.

 

[cgasner1]

Not sure if you are referring to the idiot with the tortured wolf in the bar, but yeah those looks are not good for the hunting legacy.

Exactly what I’m referring to

 

[Elktrack]

I hope you aren’t arguing that shoving no-holds-barred killing into people’s faces is sound management? That has nothing to do with management and everything to do with shoving a big FU down people’s throats. If you doubt that will have repercussions, ask the Dems how DEI worked out for them.

Not at all a proponent of shoving it in their faces. I come from the camp of being conscientious about our image and how we represent ourselves. I’m just saying that we shouldn’t have to continually tip toe around management practices to avoid upsetting the antis. Wolves are their sacred cows, I understand that. Just tired of it. It’s not going to change. I also forget the political climate is different there and there’s a proven track record of judges that rule against us.

Likely so and I would argue it's NOT sound management based on about everything I know about sound management and what that looks like.

Also, we can disagree all we want, but like I said I think you're going to have a hard convincing anyone a den full of dead wolf pups is anything close to sound management.

Its almost assured that its going to happen sooner or later.

So you’re actually more worried about the methodology of a dipshit possibly giving us a black eye, not necessarily against the extended season and such?
I agree that would be bad optics if it were to happen.
So, only management practices that eliminate the possibility of an idiot messing it up are to be supported?

What part of liberalizing the season to more effectively impact population numbers is bad management?
If you could ensure that the antis wouldn’t be offended by someone posting pics of pups would you be in favor?

It seems like “sound management “ is hamstrung by threats and feared responses from the opposition. So in an effort to not rock the boat we just go along with the status quo.

I’m preaching to the choir here. At the end of the day we both want good sound management but let’s not fool ourselves and think that we will ever be able to create a management plan that is acceptable for them. It’s been proven already that breeding pair numbers, established pack, etc. are meaningless to them when it comes down to reducing the population. It’ll never be enough.

 

[BuzzH]

Not at all a proponent of shoving it in their faces. I come from the camp of being conscientious about our image and how we represent ourselves. I’m just saying that we shouldn’t have to continually tip toe around management practices to avoid upsetting the antis. Wolves are their sacred cows, I understand that. Just tired of it. It’s not going to change. I also forget the political climate is different there and there’s a proven track record of judges that rule against us.

So you’re actually more worried about the methodology of a dipshit possibly giving us a black eye, not necessarily against the extended season and such?
I agree that would be bad optics if it were to happen.
So, only management practices that eliminate the possibility of an idiot messing it up are to be supported?

What part of liberalizing the season to more effectively impact population numbers is bad management?
If you could ensure that the antis wouldn’t be offended by someone posting pics of pups would you be in favor?

It seems like “sound management “ is hamstrung by threats and feared responses from the opposition. So in an effort to not rock the boat we just go along with the status quo.

I’m preaching to the choir here. At the end of the day we both want good sound management but let’s not fool ourselves and think that we will ever be able to create a management plan that is acceptable for them. It’s been proven already that breeding pair numbers, established pack, etc. are meaningless to them when it comes down to reducing the population. It’ll never be enough.

Look, you're not using logic, you're using emotion and that's never a good place to be.

My thoughts are this, if hunters and managers can't manage at times other than denning, calving, and fawning times, then too bad. Having a reasonable season is not "hamstringing" anything, including proper management.

I'm not ever going to think blasting a deer that's a month old with spots is anything close to management, no different than I feel about blasting wolf pups that are a month old is management either.

I even personally struggle a bit with August 15 openers for big-game. However even that is more appropriate than hunting cows/calves doe/fawns in June or July. There's guard rails there for a reason. I'm not OK with killing a doe in June that has fawns on the ground, and I'm not much in favor of a veal season for their fawns either. That's why we don't "manage" those animals in May, June, July. A lot of the reason for that absolutely is the optics.

I don't imagine very many hunters with more than a single firing brain cell think year round hunting is anything close to proper or management. Its unfettered killing not management.

I am worried about the dipshits that live amongst us, in particular because of the backlash that threatens all of it, management, ethical hunting, etc.

Just not going to be on the same page with you that year round wolf seasons are management, its not.

 

[Elktrack]

I agree with most of what you just said. I see the wolf situation differently.
Appreciate you Buzz, even if you don’t agree with me