Maybe we can’t have more hunters

[ccc23454]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/10-cities-with-the-worst-traffic-in-the-us%3fcontext=amp

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Surprised we didnt make list, tons on time lost here!

 

[The_Jim]

I think a states are going to have to change season structures to accommodate more hunters. Regardless of your feelings about it, the R3 campaign is working and no one has thought about what to do after they recruited all these new hunters...

I also think a lot of guys that can't actually afford to do these hunts and are doing them on borrowed money. When I see financing options available on backpack and clothing companies websites there is a problem. If you can't afford to pay for your gear with real money you can't afford to go on an out of state trip. When the next correction happens in our economy you will probably see things slow down a little.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Nope, I don't think it can without some kind of reset switch. I don't feel like typing out a whole long thing, but to oversimplify my views on a very serious issue: the economics of land/home ownership have shifted too aggressively to a system that rewards gambling with land and housing; the livability situation in many "populated areas" has decreased dramatically; and last but certainly not least is that reality and consequence are now totally subjective and optional, which really grinds my gears the worst because without a sense of consequence we are so totally boned.

Between having fake reserves of money that are tied to your life-crushing debt value credit score and asset/equity value, and the fantasy worlds people live in on the internet and HGTV, we've entered a weird and dangerous time I've never seen before. It used to be a bad thing to drive yourself into a level of debt that you could never possibly escape from, and buy property you had no realistic means of financing, but once that all got turned into "credit" and "home/property equity", well there went the actual, literal farm. It became ugly, poorly built modern, stylish housing developments south of Kagy Road, instead.

Western property gambling is hotter than it's ever been, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

/rant

Honestly I think you are proving my point.

"What's happening now will always happen"...

We have a hard time with the idea that the future will be different. In 1950 did anyone think old mining towns in the west would be the "hot" places to live?

In 1899 Roosevelt said "The wilderness has been conquered and all the game killed off."

100 Years ago Colorado didn't have an elk hunting season.

In 1953 many units were two buck mule deer a person and some units were fully unlimited, where a person could buy as many buck tags as they wanted. 1

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Skiing likewise has had a boom and bust history in the west.

Wildly popular... then had a huge decline, now it's popular again.

Ever year we see pics of 'epic' lines at CO resorts that seem to stretch on forever, yet it was not too long ago that a half dozen of the resorts on this map disappeared.

 

[Europe]

Flagstaff Arizona had a population of 5000 in 1940 and now it is 80000. This is crazy ! If your headed to Arizona, turn around, there is nothing there to see or do ! Look at Dirclod, his only neighbors are road runners. Terrible place to live ! I would suggest an "M" state. Montana or Mass

 

[Dougfirtree]

Skiing likewise has had a boom and bust history in the west.

Wildly popular... then had a huge decline, now it's popular again.

Ever year we see pics of 'epic' lines at CO resorts that seem to stretch on forever, yet it was not too long ago that a half dozen of the resorts on this map disappeared.

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Wow. That ski country map is amazing. Boulder actually looks like a separate town...

 

[texwest44]

Honestly I think you are proving my point.

"What's happening now will always happen"...

We have a hard time with the idea that the future will be different. In 1950 did anyone think old mining towns in the west would be the "hot" places to live?

In 1899 Roosevelt said "The wilderness has been conquered and all the game killed off."

100 Years ago Colorado didn't have an elk hunting season.

In 1953 many units were two buck mule deer a person and some units were fully unlimited, where a person could buy as many buck tags as they wanted. 1

Nah, guy, you 100% missed my point. What's happening now is a far cry different than the boom n' bust recreation-themed moving you're thinking of from the 80s and 90s. This is centered around manufactured economic hustle, not a simple "lifestyle change". Very different game.

And the American west is covered in towns that blew up in the post-war affluence of the US. People absolutely thought of small burgs in the middle of absolute nowhere America becoming hot places to live. Aspen was turning into a bougie ski destination in the 50s. Ever hear of a little burg called Las Vegas?

In 1899 Roosevelt was right. A century of killing everything in sight required another hundred years of rigorous, rigid regulatory action to bring those herds back that would have been damn near impossible to ever pull off today. The concept of "useless land the government can have" went out with the rotary phone.

The situation has evolved in a lot of ways, man.

 

[TrumpkinTheDwarf]

I agree with @wllm1313 that things change in ways we wont predict. I could get really philosophical, and go waaaay down this rabbit hole. Alas, work is calling. But in a nutshell, I think that humans, and hunters especially, need to start taking responsibility for being stewards of the land and animals we love. It's happened before. It can happen again. There are always threats and problems, but mankind's greatest strength is our ingenuity and problem solving. Our greatest weakness is a combination of pessimism and selfishness that leads us to abdicate our duties in self interest and despair.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Nah, guy, you 100% missed my point. What's happening now is a far cry different than the boom n' bust recreation-themed moving you're thinking of from the 80s and 90s. This is centered around manufactured economic hustle, not a simple "lifestyle change". Very different game.

And the American west is covered in towns that blew up in the post-war affluence of the US. People absolutely thought of small burgs in the middle of absolute nowhere America becoming hot places to live. Aspen was turning into a bougie ski destination in the 50s. Ever hear of a little burg called Las Vegas?

In 1899 Roosevelt was right. A century of killing everything in sight required another hundred years of rigorous, rigid regulatory action to bring those herds back that would have been damn near impossible to ever pull off today. The concept of "useless land the government can have" went out with the rotary phone.

The situation has evolved in a lot of ways, man.

Let me be more specific to clarify.

2060

- maybe hunting is illegal
- maybe public lands get divested and built and we hunt elk in tree stands on 40 acre parcels
- maybe PA gets a wolf reintroduction
-Montana seems on the precipice of becoming a texas - Uk hybrid and outside of HT people seem to like the idea.

I’m not saying the ski industry or hunting will collapse, but that like how folks in the 67 didn’t see the demise of Hidden Valley Ski Area perhaps we aren’t seeing a change that in hindsight will appear obvious.

“The situation has evolved…” and will continue to

 

[TheTone]

We have done a phenomenal job of promoting and getting better at hunting and killing western game but have we really done enough with wildlife numbers to offset that? At some point something has to give and it will be hunter opportunity. Short seasons, limiting numbers ad/or restricting weapons and technology will be the way.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Let me be more specific to clarify.

2060

- maybe hunting is illegal
- maybe public lands get divested and built and we hunt elk in tree stands on 40 acre parcels
- maybe PA gets a wolf reintroduction
-Montana seems on the precipice of becoming a texas - Uk hybrid and outside of HT people seem to like the idea.

I’m not saying the ski industry or hunting will collapse, but that like how folks in the 67 didn’t see the demise of hidden valley perhaps we aren’t seeing an change that in hindsight will appear obvious.

Very scary ... but insightful!

 

[44hunter45]

Flagstaff Arizona had a population of 5000 in 1940 and now it is 80000. This is crazy ! If your headed to Arizona, turn around, there is nothing there to see or do ! Look at Dirclod, his only neighbors are road runners. Terrible place to live ! I would suggest an "M" state. Montana or Mass

I've been thinking of opening a magic crystal store in Jerome...with second location near the vortex in Sedona.

As far as where to to move, it rarely snows in Texas! The Idaho resident mantra is," We just need a good old winter to make these newbies pull out and move to Texas." Alas, that appears to be something climate change has ended as well.

 

[huntin24/7]

We have done a phenomenal job of promoting and getting better at hunting and killing western game but have we really done enough with wildlife numbers to offset that? At some point something has to give and it will be hunter opportunity. Short seasons, limiting numbers ad/or restricting weapons and technology will be the way.

Good point. And I could definitely see that being a point where a lot of people don’t stick with it and find other hobbies

 

[44hunter45]

We have done a phenomenal job of promoting and getting better at hunting and killing western game but have we really done enough with wildlife numbers to offset that? At some point something has to give and it will be hunter opportunity. Short seasons, limiting numbers ad/or restricting weapons and technology will be the way.

As far as management, two words - "Over objectives".

It seems to me that at least until the politics change in Idaho and Montana, the hunters who are limited will be those who cannot get access to landowner and outfitter set-aside tags.
Right now the set-aside tags seem a small peice of the pie. I think if the pie gets smaller, that will certainly change.
OTC sportsman do not have a political machine to lobby for them.

If winter range is the limiter, and the winter range is private, landowners have a big voice.

 

[texwest44]

Let me be more specific to clarify.

2060

- maybe hunting is illegal
- maybe public lands get divested and built and we hunt elk in tree stands on 40 acre parcels
- maybe PA gets a wolf reintroduction
-Montana seems on the precipice of becoming a texas - Uk hybrid and outside of HT people seem to like the idea.

I’m not saying the ski industry or hunting will collapse, but that like how folks in the 67 didn’t see the demise of hidden valley perhaps we aren’t seeing an change that in hindsight will appear obvious.

....uh this has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Were you replying to the right person?

 

[SAJ-99]

Let me be more specific to clarify.

2060

- maybe hunting is illegal
- maybe public lands get divested and built and we hunt elk in tree stands on 40 acre parcels
- maybe PA gets a wolf reintroduction
-Montana seems on the precipice of becoming a texas - Uk hybrid and outside of HT people seem to like the idea.

I’m not saying the ski industry or hunting will collapse, but that like how folks in the 67 didn’t see the demise of Hidden Valley Ski Area perhaps we aren’t seeing a change that in hindsight will appear obvious.

“The situation has evolved…” and will continue to

I'm thinking what you describe is more along the impact of how societal changes may affect hunting. Those are hard to predict. If you want to reduce hunters, just have them go out 5-6 times, hike for 10miles/day, endure miserable whether, and not see any game. That should get rid of about 20% of them. If you let them use their e-bike to ride the trail into the wilderness, they will stick around longer. One thing that won't change is people are lazy.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I'm thinking what you describe is more along the impact of how societal changes may affect hunting.

Absolutely,

My point @texwest44 in the original comment you replied to was that we are assuming that the current trend line will remain the trend line.

My thought was a response to this...

"In respect to the goal of increasing conservation advocacy, perhaps it is a fool’s errand to promote saturated hunting opportunities if the result is that we displace advocates who currently exist in this space. By saturated I mean any OTC hunting that is crowded, and any draw that is oversubscribed.

What if the total number of all hunter hours = access*habitat*interest? Access and habitat are in continuous decline. Maybe this is the real reason we are at risk of losing conservation advocacy, and fewer persons hunting is simply a consequence rather than a cause."

I agree, but is what we are seeing and feeling temporary. Perhaps not in the sense of the next 10-20 years but maybe 40 years.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Those are hard to predict. If you want to reduce hunters, just have them go out 5-6 times, hike for 10miles/day, endure miserable whether, and not see any game. That should get rid of about 20% of them. If you let them use their e-bike to ride the trail into the wilderness, they will stick around longer. One thing that won't change is people are lazy.

Make them have to get a permit to own a firearm, walk-in only, have each piece of public land have; it's own admin agency, season dates, rules and fees. Works awesome for eliminating crowds

 

[TheGreek]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/10-cities-with-the-worst-traffic-in-the-us%3fcontext=amp

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that seems about right for Chicago. It seems like I spend most of my life trying to get from one side of the city to the other.

 

[SAJ-99]

Make them have to get a permit to own a firearm, walk-in only, have each piece of public land have; it's own admin agency, season dates, rules and fees. Works awesome for eliminating crowds

Without rules, we see more of humans defecating on the surface and generally showing a complete disrespect for nature and other people. Finding the proper balance between rules and freedoms is always a struggle. I still think the biggest concern is the loss of federal public land. Hunters would be best served to realize we need to build advocacy for nature more than advocacy for hunting. Hunting is not the end goal..wildspaces should be.IMO