Marvel wins again!

[Ithaca 37]

Even after being warned and knowing they were under scrutiny they continued to overgraze! What arrogance! And some of you claim the ranchers are trying to improve!

"The state Lands Department is recommending denial of grazing rights on 16,000 acres of state land, saying four ranchers have failed to properly manage the allotment."

For the State Lands department to do this is monumental! They have consistently favored ranchers every chance they had! Even the State Land Board must be getting fed up! The State Land Board has always opposed Marvel. Now they are realizing he's right! Kinda hard not to when you try to help ranchers and they stab you in the back! Typical bunch of ranchers --- think they can get away with anything because that's the way it's been so long. Go get them, Marvel!!

Read this!
http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=30723

I hope you guys can stay on topic when you read this and not start calling names and making personal attacks like you usually do when confronted with irrefutable evidence.

 

[DM423]

Go ahead Ithica- stir the pot.

 

[Ithaca 37]

I've heard the State Land Board is getting ready to let Marvel show everybody how he can improve some state land. That'll really make the ranchers look bad! He's already shown what he can do with some private land that was trashed beyond recognition by the former owner.

The ranchers have had many years to show what they can do and the results are terrible. Marvel comes in and has places lookin' like the Garden of Eden in about three years!

 

[MarlandS]

In your opinion Ithaca, does Marvel have a shot at being some sort of director of grazing? And, could he REASONABLY make restorative decisions without killing off the heritage of Ranching (in other words make it less profitable than it is now)?

Before you answer, I would like to remind you that in American society heritage is very important.

 

[Muledeer4me]

Mars ,great question.

 

[Ithaca 37]

The cattlemen will never forgive Marvel and the Legislature is very pro rancher and farmer, so Marvel doesn't have a chance.

He, or any intelligent person, could mandate restorative changes, but only by cutting back on grazing. That will put some marginal grazers out of business and will mean less profit for others. Many grazing allotments just can't support the number of cattle on them without damaging the land. That's what the whole battle is about-----overgrazing. The greedy welfare ranchers want to be free to overgraze just as they've always done. They will fight any reduction in grazing.

All the while they'll be claiming they love the land and know what's best for it, but we've shown dozens of times here that over 60% of all BLM is in poor condition due to grazing. Nobody even tries to deny that (except a few idiots), they just make excuses for it.

Small family farms are part of American heritage, too. Have we survived their demise?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-18-2003 18:04: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Michaelr]

You make it sound as if all the ranchers are evil monsters salivating over a chance to destroy the land. When in all reality they are just trying to make a living and take care of their own just like the rest of us.

I would support changes that are made that give them A fair oportunity to survive and be able to provide for themselves and their family.

I will not support people like Marvelous marvel who are arrogant, spiteful, mean spirited, and just plain don't give a rats ass about who they hurt with their agenda.

If marvel was compassionate, and caring, and really wanted to help bring about positive changes that were good for both the rancher/farmer and the land he would have my support and the support of alot more people than he now does.

I believe that people come first period.

There are alot of f-ed up rules and laws out there that cause alot of people alot of grief we need people who are willing to work for positive solutions. Not throw gas on an already hot fire.

One of my pet peeves is the way our tax system works.
I have a sister who is a single mother of 3 boys, She makes about a third of what I do so she is eligible for every freebie offered from wic to foodstamps, to medical coverage.
then when tax time rolls around I end up paying or get a small amount back, and she will get a refund of about 10 times what she paid.
I wouldn't mind if she got what she paid in but damn she ends up getting thousands.
now there is something to bitch about!!!!!

 

[Ithaca 37]

"When in all reality they are just trying to make a living and take care of their own just like the rest of us."

Not exactly. Most of the rest of us don't think we're entitled to destroy public property so we can "make a living and take care of our own".

"A fair oportunity to survive and be able to provide for themselves and their family."

This topic is about four ranchers who were given a second chance to show they could graze responsibly and they failed. If they can't graze land without damaging it by overgrazing and they won't do what's needed to control weeds they agreed to, then they don't deserve to have the grazing lease any longer.

I don't see how it's any different from any other businessman leasing a piece of property and abusing it, whether it's land or machinery or anything else. Certainly the entity who leases property to someone else should be able to stipulate conditions of care and responsibility for the property. If they are not met, then the contract is off. That's what I'd expect if I leased something to someone else. Wouldn't you?

 

[Muledeer4me]

Yes THIS post was about four ranchers that might have abused the land.
But Mars then asked a great question that if answered in an open honest manner really would shead light on what we are talking about.
Could Marvel do it?
The point has never been (as Ithaca would love you all to believe) that we support taking avantage of and trashing public land's.
It has and it will be about the truth in how much use really is to much,what the true meaning of welfare is,what the end result is that Jon Marvel and his supports really have in mind ,and the manner that this man lives his life and what type of person would follow such an out right hate filled person to the depth they are doing.
["The book now has plenty of evidence to prove this point. It is prefaced by statements made by Jon Marvel such as, "I want you to know that our group will redouble our efforts to put [a rancher] and their neighbors out of the ranching business permanently..." said to federal employees. Or by the quote in the High Country News that said he "would plant larkspur, a native poisonous plant to livestock, as an inducement for ranchers to keep cattle from the area." And another quote, as stated by Rocky Barker, "The Idaho Statesman, "Marvel says he files lawsuits like this one to destabilize the cattle industry... he's trying to drive them to the brink sooner rather than later."

In this last chapter to the book, Jon Marvels actions speak louder than words. He refused to pay the annual rental fee this spring for one of his state grazing leases. consequently, the Idaho Department of Lands had no choice but to cancel the lease. The land within the state lease is an unenclosed portion of the Bremner/Middle Fork allotment near Fairfield and is surrounded by Forest Service land currently permitted to graze cattle-a fact known by Marvel when he purchased the lease. In forfeiting the lease, Marvel stated that the presence of cattle prevented him from achieving his goals. This clearly displays the true agenda of Jon Marvel and his Western Watersheds Project.

Over and over again, Jon Marvel has shown an arrogance and unwillingness to work proactively with federal and state land managers, as well as with the people who make up the communities of Idaho. He has made headlines throughout the state as he has contested the presence of cattle on the land.

He has bombarded government agencies with lawsuits and by so doing personally threatened the livelihoods of hundreds of people. He has bid on several state land leases-the land which provides funds for the school endowment. Claiming he is motivated by the welfare of the environment and our children, he has only made management of the land more difficult and administration of the leases more costly, thus depleting the funds available for education. It has been a thinly veiled attempt to move his anti-grazing campaign forward."]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-19-2003 08:13: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

Well when he loses his leases, the grass should be taller for those ranchers that can still move animals back onto it!!!LOL!!!

 

[Ithaca 37]

"...four ranchers that might have abused the land..." MIGHT? I doubt that the State Land Board took their action lightly!

Please give a link to the source of the long quote. We should be able to examine the source of such a biased diatribe.

 

[1_pointer]

My biggest problem with public lands grazing is the lack of holding permittees accountable. That coupled with their weak monitoring program and it's easy for an allotment to be seriously degraded before and management is taken. Marvel too often eliminates the human/societal component with is strategies. But at the same time, the ranching community would do their cause more good by pushing for stricter enforcement of the existing laws.

The country give anyone a chance to provide for their family. But, if you aren't willing to change in a constantly changing world you are gonna have a tough time. The problem with giving a person a 'fair' chance to survive is the definition of 'fair'. Is it fair that their use of public land prevents my use of it? Is it fair to make them run less cattle because of protection of something or because of other uses? Too relative. If the land was managed with the health of the land as the major objective the fairness issue could be avoided. I'm sorry but life ain't always 'fair', just as you posted with the tax issue. Which, BTW, is how the Eastern states feel about their Western brethren who get back more than they pay in!

 

[Ithaca 37]

1 Pointer, You hit the nail right on the head! All gummint land should be managed so that it's in excellent condition. Think of how great the hunting and fishing would be! In today's economy that would bring more money into most Western states than welfare ranching (remember, public land grazing is a money loser for the taxpayers).

I'm talking about salmon fishing that would be a huge industry, along with all the jet boat sales, tackle sales, lodging, etc. Trout fishing that would attract ten times as many fishermen as we do now. Hunting that would bring many more people in and spread them out a lot more. Public land bird hunting that would be fantastic!

 

[Lostagain]

IT== lead by example... you should no longer be a ATV owning welfare farmer. GIVE your place to an enviro showcase roadside attraction for all these tourists. Do it, You first IT.

 

[Michaelr]

tell us about your farm ithaca..
and your ATV