OntarioHunter
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Those snags are obviously from a more recent fire. Anyone know when that occurred.
How's the sheep population in the Gates? Lots of them back in the days when I worked there.
Mann Gulch Hike
- Thread starter Southern Elk
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How's the sheep population in the Gates? Lots of them back in the days when I worked there.
Southern Elk
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I remember reading about your ordeal when it happened. We talked about it yesterday. Maclean called that country the most rugged terrain east of the divide. While I’m not sure if that’s true, it’s hard to argue when you’re there.
Southern Elk
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There have been several fires in that country throughout the years. Nameless Range felt that some of stumps and downed trees in Mann Gulch are from the original fire. There’s also evidence of at least 2 more recent fires that we could see.
OntarioHunter
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The upper end of Sun River is right up there for rugged.
Caseknife
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"Fire on the Mountain", also by John Maclean, about the 1994 fire on Storm King is also a very good read.
Beautiful country and looks like it was a great day for a hike.
Beautiful country and looks like it was a great day for a hike.
Straight Arrow
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Yes, there have been a number of fires above the Gates since 1949, the most recent in 2022, I think.
The Bighorn sheep population is healthy in that area. Returning from Great Falls in April, we travelled the secondary Recreation Road through Wolf Creek Canyon. We saw sheep near the Hardy Creek exit from Interstate 15, then slowly drove past sheep bedded and grazing on the shoulder of the road near the Missouri River Inn. Most interesting was a group of half a dozen or more rams on the hillside above the road south of Wolf Creek. Yep, the sheep are fat and happy!
Sheep respectfully crossing the tracks at the appropriate spot near Missouri River Inn.
OntarioHunter
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Tamarack snags might last that long on the ground but I seem to recall Mann Gulch being rather dry for that species. Doug fir and pine won't last ten years dead. Doug fir rots very quickly on the ground. Lodgepole maybe if it's standing and not a windy location. Should have been doghair coming up in that photo if snags are lodgepole. Engleman spruce and piss fir fall and crumble away almost instantly after a fire.
Edit: Thanks Straight Arrow. With that kind of fire history, the snags must be lodgepole. As I recall, the Gates has fire prone topography, lying just east of the Divide in something of a rain shadow. Still high enough to generate a lot of lightning without a lot of precipitation. The reservoir figures into that too I think. And of course steepness of terrain generates veritable fire storms. I packed livestock on northern California fires in '77 and recall seeing what appeared to be small burning logs literally carried in the air across a steep canyon.
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Stone_Ice_1
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Most of the snags in the area are from a big fire in the area during the 2007 summer. I worked around Hauser Dam that summer and it was an extremely hot one, there was a record set of something like 13 days in a row of 100 degrees. There were some other fires before and after that but the majority of those snags that are still standing in the area are from that one. It's amazing how much of that country from about Craig to Hauser dam has been burned in the last 25 years.
It's a beautiful area and I've spent a good amount of time around there. Willow Creek is one of my favorite places. Unbelievable that it was all a ranch at one time and instead of keeping it and profiting from it, the owner wanted to preserve it as a place for the animals. Have a hard time coming up with a scenario where that would happen today.
People always tell me there are lots of snakes. I have seen very few, and not rattlers. Did see a giant bull snake coming down one of the ridges that tops Mann gulch.
It's a beautiful area and I've spent a good amount of time around there. Willow Creek is one of my favorite places. Unbelievable that it was all a ranch at one time and instead of keeping it and profiting from it, the owner wanted to preserve it as a place for the animals. Have a hard time coming up with a scenario where that would happen today.
People always tell me there are lots of snakes. I have seen very few, and not rattlers. Did see a giant bull snake coming down one of the ridges that tops Mann gulch.
Straight Arrow
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Yep, lodgepole snags. Also, correct description of "fire storm" prone area. Once while boat camping under the very walls of the Gates, we experienced a dramatic lightning flashing rain storm, with the sheer rock walls of the Gate's canyon firing up like a light show!
I remember watching that smoke plume the day that fire blew up. My goodness.
A good friend of mine has some really cool pictures of tanker planes dropping retardant on that fire.
Irrelevant
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I'll have to give that book another go. I read it once and found it holy lacking compared to RRTI, which is one of the best American Novels (novellas) ever written.
Yes, Fire on the Mountain was written by John, Norman's son. If you've read that book you might recall the name Michelle Ryerson, who led an IA crew on the South Canyon fire. MacLean mentions early in the book that she had found herself on the crew with her ex-boyfriend, Loren Paulson, a few days earlier. That was on the Buniger Fire northwest of Grand Junction.
I've posted this photo before, but this is Ryerson's crew on July 4 at Buniger, two days before South Canyon. She is at back right, Paulson is back left. I'm on the tailgate next to Paulson.
It has been nearly 30 years since I read it, but I recall the first half being very good and the second half dragging.
Southern Elk
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I had seen the country before reading the book. That makes a difference, if you’ve never been there.
Southern Elk
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Correct. He tells the story of the fire during the first half and examines what and how it happened in the second half.
Blacktailbc
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Still a very good read IMO.
OntarioHunter
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Curious that I knew nothing of the South Canyon tragedy until now. The last time I went through fire training was National Park Service in 2009 and not a mention of it. Wonder why. Surely the report was done by then. I read through most of the govt version this morning (quite exhaustive!) but didn't quite get done with "Conslusion." However, I certainly do not agree with the official assertion there was nothing unusual about the fire situation. Most significantly, it was known a cold front was moving in and though wind behavior might sometimes be inconsistent in mountainous terrain, the folks who lived in that stupid subdivision the firefighters were trying to save must have known how it would behave that day. Generally, one can ALWAYS expect uphill drafts as the day progresses even without prevailing gusts moving in. Scrub oak on the side of the steep mountains provided excellent ground, ladder, and crowning fuels. As soon as the spot fires were spotted that had jumped to the bottoms of those slopes, the firefighters should have been directed to start to the top of the mountain. The "Lunch Spot" safety zone clearly would not suffice once the fire was coming up both sides of the ridge. Leaving the chainsaw fuel cans on the line behind them as they ran for it was another mistake. Open the cans and throw them down the hill. Sealed up they are exploding bombs! Spilled on the ground the fuel may just burn up in place (albeit with intensity ... which can't be avoided in any event).
Personally, I think the biggest mistake was fighting the fire in the first place. People who insist on building their fancy McMansions in those places just so they can have a home with a view and non-wild animals roaming their yards should get out a shovel and die saving their own property. Instead a bunch of young people burned to death trying to save a lot of vanity homes and trash timber that naturally should burn anyway. Damn shame.
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D
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There's a well done audio version of Young Men and Fire on audible also.
It's a remarkable story.
It's a remarkable story.
