Looking at buying a new rifle... Custom? Semi-Custom?

[VAspeedgoat]

I have been through a lot of this before. As mentioned check over everything on your current rig. If you verify a problem or just want to upgrade here is what I went through. I have done both a custom rig and a self made semi custom rig. Both were on model 700 actions and both accomplished what I wanted. The semi custom cost me less than 1000 to get done and shoots around .75 at 100 yds. The custom gun ran me 2500. It fits like a glove and can shoot better than me even in the barrel break in. It looks perfect and funtions flawlessly. When asked deer that were dead didn't seem to care which one they were shot with. Its kinda like comparing apples to oranges though. I feel infinitely more confident in that custom than the one I did. Maybe you will have more trust in you work than I do and if so go the semi custom route and you will probably get something you love with some sentamental value also. I on the other hand just know something will have to go wrong with mine and that the custom is higher quality than I may ever have a real need for. Maybe that will help.

Also something to consider, a carbon fiber stock with a good bedding job should trump a free floated barrel in almost all situations in my opinion. That and and some work on the action may turn your a bolt into a real whiz banger.

 

[belly-deep]

http://www.cdnnsports.com/300rcm-hkm77prcm-20-sts-syn.html#.Vm97Z8tlDqA

There, now the scopes as much as the gun. That's a hell of a setup for $900. Use the extra cash to splurge on a hunt.

Yeah, buy a rifle you won't be able to find ammo for in a couple years


I'll sell ya a s/s Model 7 in 300 RSAUM if you want to go that route. I've even got 250 cases and dies!

 

[npaden]

VAspeedgoat, where did you buy a custom rifle for $2,500? The ones I've been looking at are pushing $4k.

 

[ewludwig]

Funny post. Should really be titled "I'm going to buy a new toy and I need validation so I can explain it to the wife". Sound about right? ��

Look forward to seeing what you decide on for a rifle.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

VAspeedgoat, where did you buy a custom rifle for $2,500? The ones I've been looking at are pushing $4k.

Sorry, probably misleading. I had to supply the action with that but the total was 2350 plus the cost of the action which was my old mountain rifle. It had a carbon fiber stock and bedding job, fluted lilja barrel, trigger job, lapped the bolt, and lapped and mounted the rings, and a cerakote paint job on the barrel and stock. It was at Jack Keister Customs here in VA. I've been super impressed with the work he does. Pm me if you are interested or google him.

 

[mtmuley]

Yeah, buy a rifle you won't be able to find ammo for in a couple years


I'll sell ya a s/s Model 7 in 300 RSAUM if you want to go that route. I've even got 250 cases and dies!

How much? mtmuley

 

[Rancho Loco]

Okay, I'm looking into buying a new rifle.

Background:

I've had my Browning A-Bolt for 8 years now and it has performed well for me in that time. I've taken 6 bull elk, 4 mule deer bucks, 4 whitetail bucks, a couple antelope bucks, a mountain goat and several pigs and coyotes with it. Before this weekend I had only pulled the trigger once with it on a big game animal and missed, and that was an elk that I thought was 400 yards away but after shooting and missing I actually used my range finder and found out that the elk had actually been 550 yards away.

Last week I shot at and missed a good whitetail buck that was 250 yards away with a 20+ mph wind looking into a setting sun. The buck had been moving and stopped and I probably rushed the shot a little. Not an "easy" shot, but one that I fully expect to make all day every day. I felt good at the shot, but after looking for a down or fatally wounded deer ahead of where I had shot, instead I saw him standing there looking at me. Then before I could shoot again he trotted off. I did a grid search at the shot location and the entire section of my property and didn't see a drop of blood or any indication that I had hit him.

I took the rifle home and shot off a 100 yard bench and the first shot was 3" high and 3" right. I thought that might explain the miss, adjusted 12 clicks down and 12 clicks left and shot 2 more shots. They were 1" low and 3" left. That left me scratching my head, so I clicked 12 clicks back to the right and 4 clicks up. Shot 2 shots and both were good left to right but one was 4" high and one was 1" high. Shot more more shot without adjusting the scope and it was right next to the 4" high one. Clicked it down 8 clicks and fired off one last shot thinking that would be 2" high at 100 yards and we would call it good. Nope, it hit 1" low and 3" left.

The barrel was a bit warm for that last shot, but it sure left me scratching my head. I'll get back out there and shoot again sometime this week and hopefully it will be good enough to let me take it back to see if I can find that whitetail again this weekend, but this has helped me to decide to really look into a new rifle. At it's best I haven't been able to get the A-Bolt to group much better than 1 1/2 MOA. My Rock River Arms AR15 will shoot 1/2 MOA so I don't think it is all me although I'm sure that is part of it.

So, if I go to buy a new gun, what should I get?

I am thinking a .300 WSM for an all around rifle good for pretty much everything in North America including bear. My A-Bolt is 7mm Rem Mag and I don't notice the recoil with a good recoil pad on it. I don't want a muzzle brake as I don't wear ear plugs when hunting. I want it to be an all weather rifle. I would love to be able to shoot 600 yards with it, but not sure if I can do my part on that or not.

I looked at the Montana Rifle Company Extreme X2 rifles and they look pretty good and seem to get pretty good reviews. They seem to be pretty good bang for the buck. They do custom rifles as well but the price sure seems to jump up there pretty quickly. The high country series looks pretty close to what I'm looking for but they are $$.

I'm a tightwad and really don't want to spend more on a gun than I need to, but at the same time I would be willing to pay for a gun that will shoot. I do my share of backpack hunting and would like to do more so a lightweight gun is also a requirement. It doesn't have to be over the top and weigh under 6lbs but much over 7lbs is probably a deal breaker.

Last tidbit is that I have a long torso and prefer a long length of pull on a rifle. That's one of the reasons I went with the A-bolt.

I haven't ruled out Browning and have looked at the X-bolt in .300 WSM, but really am looking for something under 1 MOA if possible. That little RRA AR15 is amazing how will it shoots and I never have to adjust the scope on it.

Part of the problem on my A-bolt is the free floated barrel I think and sometimes I hold the stock and the barrel in my hand and squeeze them together. Of course I don't do it on purpose, but it sure messed up the groups when I do that. Have to think back on each shot to think whether I held the thing correctly or not.

Okay, a lot of stuff thrown out there, and if it sounds like I don't know what I'm talking about then I probably don't.

I'm pretty sure I can get my A-bolt shooting 1 1/2 MOA in time to take it hunting this weekend, but this whole process has about convinced me to buy a new gun.

I would appreciate any ideas or input on this.

Thanks, Nathan

First - learn to diagnose, and fix, your present rifle.

 

[1_pointer]

Like others have stated, sounds more like a scope problem than a rifle problem to me. Not just the screws being loose, but it doesn't sound like its tracking/adjusting like it should. A good check would be to put the scope on your AR and see if it shoots the same.

Though it's not as fun or glamorous, but I'd suggest you get into handloading before dropping the money on a semi-custom/custom rifle. I'm betting with little effort and load tweaking it'd be easy to get better than 1.5 MOA from your current rifle. I see little use in spending the money on a custom/semi-custom rifle only to run factory ammo through it.

You didn't give a price point that you want to shoot for, but given what you did say you were looking at for a new rifle, I'd be looking at the Kimber Montana, Montana Rifle X2, and Winchester Extreme and in that order in a 300 WSM.

However, if you really like the rifle you have now, you could spend about the same money as a new rifle and get a new, better stock and barrel installed. If you go this route I'd suggest a McMillan stock as it'll probably be both stiffer and lighter than what you currently have. Lots of places to get one re-barrelled, but if it's shooting 1.5MOA (which is totally acceptable for me) with factory loads handloading could make that smaller.

 

[npaden]

First - learn to diagnose, and fix, your present rifle.

To get it to shoot better than 1 1/2 MOA groups? Or just to get it back to shooting 1 1/2 MOA groups.

I'm pretty confident I can get it back to shooting 1 1/2 MOA groups with the factory load that I've been using the last 5 years, but not sure I can get it much better than that, I have tried before even playing with different factory loads and 1 1/2 MOA was about as good as I could get it.

Just have to wait for a day with winds under 20 mph to mess with it.

Maybe I'll buy a Forbes...

 

[npaden]

The scope not tracking/adjusting as it should is a very good possibility. It has a few pretty solid dings in the turret covers where it has been dropped and fell on over the last 8 years. It never adjusted exactly perfect before, but that does make sense because it was grouping well after each adjustment, the adjustments just weren't getting it to the desired point. I can't really explain that last shot of the day, but it could easily have been operator error on my part on that shot.

As far as running factory ammo through whatever rifle I end up with, I was thinking I could buy reloaded ammo from whoever worked up the load on the custom rifle if that was the route I went? Several of the builders say they will guarantee a .5 MOA and give the load specs for it. I was thinking I could just buy that load 100 rounds at a time or something. I do have a friend with all the reloading stuff that I could probably use if I had to.

 

[StrutNut]

I too am thinking you have a scope or scope mounting issue. I just bought a Savage Bear Hunter and if you decide to buy something else, I would look into these. Very accurate and very little recoil with the brake on. No need for a lead sled. My son and I ran 80 rounds in one sitting and would have shot more but ran out of ammo. With factory ammo we are under 1.5 inches grouping...at 200 yards. I will start reloading for this over the winter to get that 200 yard group under an inch.

 

[1_pointer]

The scope not tracking/adjusting as it should is a very good possibility. It has a few pretty solid dings in the turret covers where it has been dropped and fell on over the last 8 years. It never adjusted exactly perfect before, but that does make sense because it was grouping well after each adjustment, the adjustments just weren't getting it to the desired point. I can't really explain that last shot of the day, but it could easily have been operator error on my part on that shot.

As far as running factory ammo through whatever rifle I end up with, I was thinking I could buy reloaded ammo from whoever worked up the load on the custom rifle if that was the route I went? Several of the builders say they will guarantee a .5 MOA and give the load specs for it. I was thinking I could just buy that load 100 rounds at a time or something. I do have a friend with all the reloading stuff that I could probably use if I had to.

If the adjustments were going where they should I'd be concerned about them staying put. Dings on the turret caps lead me to believe something is wonky in there...

There are custom ammo manufacturers out there, but the custom riflesmiths I've looked into for my needs do not advertise the selling of the ammo. IIRC that takes a very different ATF license. If you know of one that could be moot. You could get all the gear you need to load your own for $500 or less. Good luck!

 

[whiskeydog]

In addition to what everyone has already recommended, you may want to take your rifle to a gun smith and have the barrel scoped. I have a 6.5x284 that has always shot 1/2-3/4 MOA. When I went out this fall to verify it was sighted in, the rounds were all over the place. I would shoot a few inches high, adjust the scope to bring the rounds down and the next shot would be left or right or where ever...no pattern and shooting 2-3 MOA no matter what adjustments I made. I was getting very frustrated. Gun smith ran a scope down the barrel and saw a very small nick on the crown where the barrel met the brake. He said it happens sometimes just due to the pressure from the rounds. He scoped it for free, cut the brake off and recrowned the barrel for $45. Took it back to the range and had it shooting 1/2 MOA in about 5 minutes...

 

[belly-deep]

To get it to shoot better than 1 1/2 MOA groups? Or just to get it back to shooting 1 1/2 MOA groups.

I'm pretty confident I can get it back to shooting 1 1/2 MOA groups with the factory load that I've been using the last 5 years, but not sure I can get it much better than that, I have tried before even playing with different factory loads and 1 1/2 MOA was about as good as I could get it.

Just have to wait for a day with winds under 20 mph to mess with it.

Maybe I'll buy a Forbes...

I can get .6" or better with all three of my Forbes

With several loads

 

[sbhooper]

I can get .6" or better with all three of my Forbes

With several loads

For the price, you should be able to!

I cannot believe that the rifle is the issue. If 1.5 moa is the best that you can get, then have you tried different loads? That rifle should be a minute shooter easily.

There have been some great tips here. The rifle that you have is a good rifle. If you want to throw money at a new custom, by all means have at it, but a custom rifle can have issues, too, if everything is not just right.

I would strip it down and start by resetting the bases with locktite, rings etc. to follow. Then I would make sure that the stock is free-floated. I would try that scope again after doing all of this and then if it is still bad, try a different scope. I have had scopes go bad and cost me a lot of ammo before I figured it out and sent it to the company for fixing.

I have a Savage 7 mag that I shot a barrel out on. It was re-barreled with a Criterion barrel and is as accurate as a rifle can be. I also have a "cheap" Rem SPS 7 mag that is also a 1/2 moa shooter. Both rifles shoot any of my hand-loads extremely well. You do not need a custom to have a shooter unless you just want to do it. It's your dime.

 

[sagebrush]

If you buy another rifle, do yourself a favor and look hard at an X-Bolt. I have two and like them even better than my A-Bolts. As far a caliber, hard to beat the 7MM RM you are currently shooting. You can get very high quality ammo from HSM loaded with 168gr Berger VLD's. I can put every round in a 12 inch plate at 700 yards with my 7MM RM X-Bolt off the bench. Leupold all the way on the scope. The CDS with the Windplex reticle. You should be about $2,000 all up. If you can't get to that price, send me a PM and I'll get you set up with a dealer that can do it. Spend that extra $2K on ammo for the range.

 

[npaden]

I've got the barrel soaking in the foamy copper removal stuff, printed out some targets and about to go shoot some paper. Looks like I will be a little late to work this morning.

 

[npaden]

Okay, I'm still scratching my head on my current setup. One word of advice, don't try to figure out what is going on with your setup with $50 a box premium ammo.

Beautiful morning to do some shooting. Too bad the results are so bad.

I did check my scope. 3 of the 4 screws on the rings did tighten up about 1/4 turn. I don't have a torque wrench for the torx screws, but I put some pretty good pressure on them to get them to tighten. I didn't check the bases as I would have had to remove the scope to do that. Everything seems rock solid though.

Here's the first target. I fired one fouling shot (forgot to bring some crappy ammo so that cost me $2.75. Shooting with shot bags on a bench at 100 yards. Wind was calm. Focused on shooting and not griping the forestock. Results were about 4 MOA.

Decided that group sucked too bad to try to adjust anything so shot another 3 shot group.

Actually improved to about 3 MOA, but still sucked. Vertically it seemed good, horizontally it did not.

This last target needs an instruction manual on how to read it. Can you tell it was the last one I brought with me?

Shot 2 more times and they were actually pretty close together, again they the vertical adjustment seemed dead on, just hitting to the left. With 8 shots averaged out with the same scope settings, I decided that it was shooting left a bit and decided to go ahead and adjust the scope. I moved it 12 clicks right, then back 4 clicks and then tapped on it.

The next shot grouped fairly close to the previous 2 shots before I adjusted the scope! I decided to go ahead and not adjust the scope and shoot some more times to see what was going to happen.

The next 2 shots actually hit about where I had thought I adjusted the scope earlier. Not sure if it takes a shot to get the scope locked in or what the heck is going on.

Now I was running low on my premium ammo and decided to go ahead and adjust the scope again. I like it to be 2" high at 100 yards so I clicked it up. I can't remember if I clicked it up 8 or 10 clicks net. I went past a few clicks and came back a couple then tapped on the turret.

Next shot ended up about 3" right and up about 1" from where I had been hitting. Complete head scratcher. Again, I didn't adjust the scope but decided to shoot a couple more times. The last 2 shots are the ones between 2" and 3" high and actually pretty good horizontally.

The last 4 of the last 5 shots are all pretty good horizontally. Not sure what is up with the shot after I adjusted the scope the last time.

I'm down to 5 bullets of my premium e-tip ammo and not sure if anyone in town has any so I stopped there. Not terrible on those last 2 shots and things actually seemed to group better there toward the end other than the shots immediately after adjusting the scope.

I'm thinking I might take some blue box ammo out again and see if it is at least grouping decently and save those last 5 bullets for this weekend.

I did punch some paper with the Rock River Arms AR15 while I was at it. Not a very impressive group for it actually. With my A-Bolt I was probably taking 30 seconds to a minute between shots, really working on controlling my breathing, etc. This was 3 or 4 seconds between shots and a 5 shot group and right around 1 MOA. I haven't messed with this scope or cleaned the barrel in a couple years and at least 100 rounds through it.

I'll probably burn through some cheap ammo with the A-Bolt tomorrow. I double checked the stock and I could stick a piece of paper between the barrel and the stock pretty easy. With the gun resting on the shot bags it didn't appear that the barrel was touching the stock, but it is closer on one side than the other. I made an effort to not squeeze the forestock, actually I barely touched it on one side.

I'm losing confidence in the gun or the scope or both.

 

[1_pointer]

IMO, that's a scope issue. Sounds like it's crapped the bed. I'd pull it off and mount it to the AR to test. Unless something has drastically happened with the rifle, there's no way groups would just double.

For hunting right now, buy some big game bullets for the AR and use it. It'll work more than well enough for deer until you get the other sorted out. If you really want to use the Abolt this year, buy a new Leupold since they are running some great deals right now. Send the Nikon off to get fixed. Once you have them both back, just sell the one you don't like as much.

This is good lesson in having a backup rifle.

 

[WapitiBob]

Like 1 pointer said, mount the scope on the AR to test. Then you'll know if it's the scope. I've had bad rifles and bad scopes.