Logging slows down forest recovery after burning

[BuzzH]

BHR,

I dont agree that logging is bad...logging and leaving roads behind is bad.

If every sale were a helicopter sale on federal land and no additional roads had to be built, I'd be even more pro-logging.

The fact is, the roads are what make most logging not worth it in the long run. Gating roads is NOT an acceptable method of dealing with the many issues.

Completely destroying the roads or helicopter logging is the ONLY way I'd ever agree with logging in areas that are unroaded.

Areas that already have maintained roads, I'm much more in favor of logging in those areas. The only trouble is, most of those areas are not scheduled for additional logging for quite a while as they already look like the moon. Trees dont grow very fast in the interior west.

Oh, and as to pointers comments, you need to take a reading comprehension course. He was saying, that in SOME areas where its desirable to NOT have trees (like in sagebrush area, meadows, grasslands, etc.) where trees are encrouching into habitat types where they werent historically found, logging can be a desirable way to keep trees out of those areas.

Pretty simple and I'm not sure why you're having such a tough time understanding pointers logic in that.

I think if anything he was supporting logging as a tool to enhance other habitat types, which it surely can.

Sometimes you just dont get it.

 

[1_pointer]

Thanks for the assist Buzz.

BHR, I don't have a bias against logging. I have a bias against mismanaged logging. My intention was that this study could be used as support for management practices to slow forest renegeration, which is called for and can be neccesary. I am not against extractive industries, hell I work in one. But, I am for using good science/data in the management of these industries to ensure the longterm health of the system, which inturn allows for a greater extraction of resources over time. I'll try to word my thoughts better next time.

 

[TheTone]

BHR, To say that I am biased against logging is a stretch. I do 90 % of my elk hunting on land owned by Potlatch Corp., so I can't hate them too much . My bias is towards good scientific evidence and research. I think Buzz and 1 Pointer have both done a really good job of explaining things and my feelings about the topic so I won't repeat it. Well put guys.

 

[BigHornRam]

I'm in favor of good logging practices and good science. I've seen both abused. It would be nice to live in a time when the Palouse Prairie didn't have to be plowed. When bison roamed the plains. When the forest didn't need to be cut for timber. When the rivers didn't need to be dammed for electricity. But that's not the real world anymore. There's close to 300 million people living in this country today, all looking to be fed, clothed, provided shelter, educated, and employed. I think this country has done a remarkable job providing for that many people, with the standard of living everyone here has come to expect. And yet we still can preserve special places as parks and wilderness areas ect.. We're pretty lucky if you really stop to think about it.

 

[BigHornRam]

Tone,

You do 90% of your elk hunting on Potlatch land? I would think a young buck like you would be taking advantage of the millions of wilderness acres your state has to offer. Buzz likes to whine about PC land, but sure spends a lot of time hunting it. You guys kill me!

 

[JoseCuervo]

I'm in favor of good logging practices and good science. I've seen both abused. It would be nice to live in a time when the Palouse Prairie didn't have to be plowed. When bison roamed the plains. When the forest didn't need to be cut for timber. When the rivers didn't need to be dammed for electricity. But that's not the real world anymore. There's close to 300 million people living in this country today, all looking to be fed, clothed, provided shelter, educated, and employed. I think this country has done a remarkable job providing for that many people, with the standard of living everyone here has come to expect. And yet we still can preserve special places as parks and wilderness areas ect.. We're pretty lucky if you really stop to think about it.

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh.... the sky is falling......

 

[ELKCHSR]

It's a simple fact of economics...

Like it or not, as Paul explained, there are a lot of people in the U.S. being supported by all means of the extraction industries and we all seem to be doing pretty well in them.

What guner/sybil is talking about with the sky falling, I haven't a guess???

Getting back to economics, it’s a simple matter really.

We can start with roads, since that is a big concern.

1. It has been shown that it’s cheaper to maintain a road for 50 years and reopen it to logging when the time is right, than putting it to bed and making a new one to the area every time it is ready for re-harvest.

2. Helicopters, (this would be my choice also) while very easy on the land, are "Eexxttrreemmllyy" Expensive for logging operations and are only used when the government is willing to foot the extra costs or the timber is large enough to pay the expense, it’s not very practical west of the Cascade mountain range in most places because of this.

3. The government in its wisdom (and having number crunchers help) see that putting a number of people to work harvesting said timber (usually by road because interior timber just doesn't produce the amount of dollars warranted by helicopter logging)
Drawing tax revenue from every step either by taxation of product labor or service brings in more than it pays. Maybe not what those looking at "direct" numbers see, but in the overall scheme of things extracts a decent amount of revenue for the government.

3. There are many roads I have walked down that have been effectively and efficiently closed down by a gate, those are the gates that have been well placed to prevent people from going around, not just placed in the tracks out on the flats as I see quite often. This doesn't include motor bikes and four wheelers; they still go under or around 90% of the gates. Proof though in the successful closures is the fact they are growing over and trees are seeding in the tracks and the roads don’t show much tire erosion.

One thing I would like to mention is many of the places I have been and the same for those I have talked to, at one time had roads going thru, to or close by.

Places that would be shut down now by letting the roads are put to bed; thru time will more than likely get a "road less" classification, just because there is no obvious road there and those same types of people decrying use of the areas now in this phase will just extend the areas to cover what has by then, grown back.

It is more a way to slowly but surely get larger expanses shut off while the population gets larger.

Maybe in the long run, that might not be a bad thing, but it will increase our need to garner our own needs from other nations, which would bring our own dependence of extraction resources on the wills of other countries as is happening now with petroleum.

 

[TheTone]

Tone,

You do 90% of your elk hunting on Potlatch land? I would think a young buck like you would be taking advantage of the millions of wilderness acres your state has to offer. Buzz likes to whine about PC land, but sure spends a lot of time hunting it. You guys kill me!

Yeah I do , although its probably more like 70% and the rest being forest service if I really think about it. When you know a good little spot and have near intimate knowledge of it you can see some elk. Sure I have to put up with some crowding, high road densities and plenty of people riding four wheelers; but I also think I put more time and work into it than most people in the areas and thus can overcome some of these issues. Trust me I'd love to be breaking my back hunting deep in wilderness areas, but the elk numbers aren't any better at the moment. If the upper clearwater and lochsa areas had the elk numbers they did 10-15 years ago thats where I'd be hunting but the numbers there might be worse than where I'm currently at. When and if the numbers ever rebound in those areas and I'm still in the area I'm sure I'll migrate there. I might even do some elk hunting on private land this year. Lots of elk on it that are getting fat off fields and the lack of wolves in this spot.

 

[BigHornRam]

Jose,

Are you mocking the Buzz crowd again?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Jose,

Are you mocking the Buzz crowd again?

No, I am mocking your hysteria over the need to take care of 300 million people by logging wilderness areas, drilling hunting areas, and ruining our way of life.

 

[BigHornRam]

Jose,

Do you make a habit of drinking this early in the morning? Seek help.

 

[ELKCHSR]

HAHAHA...

It's fun to see how some feel the need to take some thing stated and jump as far as possible to conclusions to what was actually said... kinda silly actually...

 

[The Hedgehog]

the need to take some thing stated and jump as far as possible to conclusions to what was actually said

What the heck does that mean? Get help dude! Nobody is asking for you to attempt to pass a college level class in English writing. My daughter got this for her birthday last week. Start here and work your way up: Cheese's English Training Beginner's Toolkit

It comes with the whole alphabet and might be the best $15.95 you'll ever spend:

 

[TheTone]

Don't hold back Greeny. How do you really feel?

 

[1_pointer]

I think this country has done a remarkable job providing for that many people, with the standard of living everyone here has come to expect. And yet we still can preserve special places as parks and wilderness areas ect.. We're pretty lucky if you really stop to think about it.

I'd agree. Can't remember anything much like it in history.

Greenhorn- That's funny....but true!

 

[BuzzH]

Greenhorn,

That is about the funniest thing I've seen for a while.

Cheese practicing fridge phonics...that is freaking hilarious.