Little Rocky Moutains giveaway

[Nemont]

Look at a map and figure out how much federal land there is in eastern Montana. Not counting reservation, look at BLM, USFW, Corps of Engineers, etc. suppose any of that federal property use water resources?

 

[spook12]

Look at a map and figure out how much federal land there is in eastern Montana. Not counting reservation, look at BLM, USFW, Corps of Engineers, etc. suppose any of that federal property use water resources?

O.K. I'll play along with you. Are you suggesting that a significant percentage of this water was used on non-agricultural federally owned land? Pull up a sat photo and look at all those pretty green circles in a sea of brown, and then tell me how a significant amount of that water found its way on to fed ground.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Good post Randy.

It's important to remember as well that what a bill looks like when it's introduced, especially a water settlement bill, doesn't mean things are a done deal. There will be a lot of changes to the bill before it becomes a law.

A lot of folks have been talking with Senator Tester about how to address the concerns we have related to the swap. What the final outcome is I don't know, but I do know that Tester is listening. I agree that the land swap is a bad deal and that we should continue to work to stop it and I'm actively doing so. But in order to do so, we need to find a better solution rather than just say "no." We also need to talk with our neighbors at Ft. Belknap and make sure this is a conversation that all parties have a seat at the table for.

All parties seem to agree that the tribes have had the pipe laid to them as it relates to their water being taken. That is not the argument. The contention comes from how much is a fair to compensate for the water taken and what manner of payment should be made.

Personally, I don't want to see any land as part of the payment. The rest of America, and their delegates in Congress, none of whom will ever step foot on the lands of Grinnell Notch, would rather save millions of dollars by paying in land and cash, rather than all cash.

This is the crux of the issue. It doesn't matter who did what, what matters is the law, and the law is clear that the Tribe deserves compensation for what has occurred regarding their water rights. Arguing Cowboys (or irrigators) and Indians takes focus away from what we need to do: Propose a better alternative.

Randy's absolutely correct when he says that the ability to get federal dollars for this bill is tough at best. The Land Swap was viewed as a way to get compensation to the Tribe in lieu of cash. Especially since this was at one point reservation land. Every time someone posts of conservation programs being cut, there's 4,5 responses telling them that they should just accept that there's no money and we shouldn't have to pay for programs like that. That messaging, as wrong as it is, is now working against folks who want to keep public lands.

And yeah, I'm an Indian Lover too.

 

[Nemont]

Go look at how many of those pretty green areas have water rights which have been adjudicated by the water court. Go look at how much water Uncle Sam let go to our Canadian neighbors and refuses to have them comply with the 1921 Order of the International Joint Commission (IJC). Most of those pretty green circles are not supplied with Milk River water, they are using ground water which the tribe has no claim to.

So are you claiming that all the federal property doesn't come with implied water rights which the government exercises? or that the water claimed by the property would not flow into the Milk River basin?

 

[spook12]

A stupid question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.
What if anything is being done to insure that ''WE'' don't find ourselves in this position again?
Are there any steps being taken to see that the users of this water are paying for it? Are we gonna look up one day and find that ''WE'' owe another bill that ''WE'' don't want to pay?

 

[spook12]

Go look at how many of those pretty green areas have water rights which have been adjudicated by the water court. Go look at how much water Uncle Sam let go to our Canadian neighbors and refuses to have them comply with the 1921 Order of the International Joint Commission (IJC). Most of those pretty green circles are not supplied with Milk River water, they are using ground water which the tribe has no claim to.

So are you claiming that all the federal property doesn't come with implied water rights which the government exercises? or that the water claimed by the property would not flow into the Milk River basin?

Nemont i'm not ''claiming'' shit.
What I do know is that there is an outstanding debt owed to this Tribe. Someone used their water and didn't pay for it. You seem to be saying that all the folks up and down the Eastern seaboard are as responsible for this outstanding debt as those who actually used the water.Go back and read Big Fins post he plainly states that this debt was inherited by the feds not created by them.
If you have evidence that this debt was created by all of us,weather knowingly or not post it up.

 

[howler]

a lot of the water in question if not all of it flows right down the Milk River right into the Missouri and then into the Mighty Mississippi that water that the tribe should have had a right to was used many times over from the boarder of the reservation right on down to the gulf of Mexico,, thousands upon thousands of users along the way and all made money off it for over a 150 years, but the locals have to pay this bill..

 

[spook12]

a lot of the water in question if not all of it flows right down the Milk River right into the Missouri and then into the Mighty Mississippi that water that the tribe should have had a right to was used many times over from the boarder of the reservation right on down to the gulf of Mexico,, thousands upon thousands of users along the way and all made money off it for over a 150 years, but the locals have to pay this bill..

So a HUGE amount of that water ''Isn't being pumped through center pivots'' creating those pretty green circles that Nemont and I have been discussing?

''But the locals have to pay this bill'' ? Please tell us that you're kidding!

 

[Nemont]

Tell you what come on up and take a tour of those center pivots and then tell me how many are actually using diverted Milk River water that they don't have an adjudicated water right too, and how many are using ground water.

That amount of water is tiny compared to what Uncle Sam allows our Canadian brothers to retain in Alberta in violation of the treaty.

So no a "huge" amount of that water is not being pumped illegally through center pivots but what do I know I only lived in the Milk River Valley all my life and you must know more that the me about how those pivots are supplied with water.

Nemont

 

[dustinf]

''But the locals have to pay this bill'' ? Please tell us that you're kidding!

For real.

All tax paying residents of The United States are paying the bill...

 

[spook12]

Tell you what come on up and take a tour of those center pivots and then tell me how many are actully using diverted Milk River water that they don't have an adjudicated water too, and how many are using ground water.

That amount of water is tiny compared to what Uncle Sam allows our Canadian brothers to retain in Alberta in violation of the treaty.

So no a "huge" amount of that water is not being pumped illegally through center pivots but what do I know I only lived in the Milk River Valley all my life and you must know more that the me about how those pivots are supplied with water.

Nemont

So then please explain WHERE DID THE WATER GO? Why do we owe this Tribe untold millions of dollars? Are you saying that it wasn't used? If so we sure could use you're testimony if and when this is heard in court. I have been under the allusion that we did in fact inherit a real debt but I guess I was wrong.
So there Fort Belknap Tribe''Go jump in a lake''(pun intended) the folks of eastern Montana didn't use your dang old water.
Problem solved!

 

[OriginalOscar]

For those who don't live in the rural west this might help.

I grew up in a town of about 300 interbred 3-4 generations thanks to polygamy. Couldn't date anyone in town because they were cousins. Since we didn't have any local government entity we had to attend the town water meeting to get my Citizenship in the Community merit badge when I was 12. Walked in and the two county sheriffs in opposing corners should have been a clue. At the end of the night I had a whole new vocabulary and learned things about peoples ancestors which probably should have stayed in the past. Sheriff's had to escort four people out and make sure they left with their Mrs.

The point being water does flow to the sea ultimately but the use and impact of that water is the lifeblood of agriculture and small communities in the west. The good people of MT are impacted directly by this decision more than the rest of us. As my kin fold demonstrated when I was twelve it matters most if your livelihood is impacted. That said the tribes need a fair settlement for past wrongs perpetrated federal, state, and local entities.

p.s Didn't marry a cousin but I'm thankful for growing up grounded in a small community.

 

[howler]

Dustinf, We all agree the entire Us should be paying this bill but the local sportsmen are paying more, they are loosing a huge block of BLM ground that has historically been used for outdoor recreation and of course hunting, of course all of us could hunt there but the locals who use this land the most will be with out if this part of the bill is passed, where as somebody from out of state or even out of the area in all likelihood will never step foot in this area and would not miss it at all, the locals are paying more account they are loosing more.

 

[smarandr]

Walked in and the two county sheriffs in opposing corners should have been a clue. At the end of the night I had a whole new vocabulary and learned things about peoples ancestors which probably should have stayed in the past. Sheriff's had to escort four people out and make sure they left with their Mrs.

Yup. No quicker way to start a blood feud out west than to screw with someone's water. I've seen two elderly men get into a fist fight over a matter of a couple of extra hours one of them had water turned into his ditch.

 

[Nemont]

So then please explain WHERE DID THE WATER GO? Why do we owe this Tribe untold millions of dollars? Are you saying that it wasn't used? If so we sure could use you're testimony if and when this is heard in court. I have been under the allusion that we did in fact inherit a real debt but I guess I was wrong.
So there Fort Belknap Tribe''Go jump in a lake''(pun intended) the folks of eastern Montana didn't use your dang old water.
Problem solved!

It isn't up to me to explain where it went. You need to explain to the rest of us why the Federal Government has no liability and why the taxpayers of the United States are not on the hook. I believe the reason that Tester is attempting to get the compact settled is because the Federal Government most likely wouldn't prevail in court given the Winter's doctrine. Therefore the Federal government and by extension the Taxpayers of the United States are on the hook due to the actions of the Federal Government to not safeguard the reserved water rights of the tribe as stated by the Winters doctrine.

Explain why it is accepted that the tribe would prevail in litigation against the Federal Government in regards to their unprotected water rights but you believe you should be absolved of any part of that obligation.

Nemont

 

[spook12]

Dustinf, We all agree the entire Us should be paying this bill but the local sportsmen are paying more, they are loosing a huge block of BLM ground that has historically been used for outdoor recreation and of course hunting, of course all of us could hunt there but the locals who use this land the most will be with out if this part of the bill is passed, where as somebody from out of state or even out of the area in all likelihood will never step foot in this area and would not miss it at all, the locals are paying more account they are loosing more.

Oh the HORROR! Those who benefited the most from the water asked to sacrifice the most.
What would be fair in your mind? Borrow some more cash from China so future generations can be the ones to pay for water they never used? How about negotiating a land swap with the tribe for some Federal ground in Hawaii? I'm sure they would be tickled pink to pay a large chunk of this bill for you.

 

[howler]

the lawsuit is over the tribe won and we agree that the tribe should be paid for whats due, what is the sticky part is as an after thought instead of paying them the full amount of cash they were awarded, Senator Testor seems to think giving them 15K acres of BLM land and then knocking off 5 million from the bill is a good idea, I believe Testor knows better he is getting some very bad advice from some of his advisors, This just isn't 15K acres of extra land it is 15K acres of all the mountain habitat for this part of Montana, we lose this we do not have anymore,,

Some extra history of this piece of land. at one time this very piece use to belong to the tribe but they traded it to the US Gov't for lower elevation adjacent grasslands that was better for farming ranching and buffalo, in those times the mountain habitats weren't as valuable as they are today, recreation in the late 19th century wasn't a real concern. they traded that land for what they thought was more valuable land at the time anyway,

 

[Triple BB]

Well, if Tester is pushing it, there's a pretty good chance if it makes it out of the Senate, House repub's will kill it just cause. You guys who don't support it need to follow it and if it does make it to the House, try to drum up support for the bills demise. I'm not real familiar with the situation, but I don't agree with selling off public lands that belong to all of us. I'd rather see the tribe end up with a pile of worthless money. Just add it to the national debt and move on. Then they can go by some land, whiskey or whatever...

 

[howler]

I will repost a comment I made earlier you must have missed it.

"a lot of the water in question if not all of it flows right down the Milk River right into the Missouri (90 miles away) and then into the Mighty Mississippi,, that water that the tribe should have had a right to was used many times over from the boarder of the reservation right on down to the gulf of Mexico,, thousands upon thousands of users along the way, and all made money off it for over a 150 years, but the locals have to pay this bill.. "

the locals don't reap the rewards of the water that was used by users hundreds and thousands of miles downstream, actually the water is used many times over, its used for floating barges down the Mississippi it is used for those big green circles everyone is talking about many miles and states along the water way, it is used to feed city water systems from North Dakota to Louisiana.

 

[spook12]

I isn't up to me to explain where it went. You need to explain to the rest of us why the Federal Government has no liability and why the taxpayers of the United States are not on the hook. I believe the reason that Tester is attempting to get the compact settled is because the Federal Government most likely wouldn't prevail in court given the Winter's doctrine. Therefore the Federal government and by extension the Taxpayers of the United States are on the hook due to the actions of the Federal Government to not safeguard the reserved water rights of the tribe as stated by the Winters doctrine.

Explain why it is accepted that the tribe would prevail in litigation against the Federal Government in regards to their unprotected water rights but you believe you should be absolved of any part of that obligation.

Nemont

You have completely misunderstood me. I'm well aware that Federal Government and by extension that means the Taxpayers are on the hook.
But we are on the''Hook'' because the users of that water didn't pay for its use.
We are on the hook because we are the benevolent big brother who must make sure that both parties are made as whole as possible,(users get water they can't afford and suppliers get compensated).
As to your last Question. I can only assume that the Tribe would prevail because those who know many more facts than me do(TESTER).
Do you want to be absolved of liability when I chose not to pay my water bill this month?Because that is the nexus of this situation.Someone received water they didn't pay for and the rest of us are''On The Hook''!