Less Access = Less People = Less Probability of getting Caught

[Ten Bears]

Is that what you found BoyZZ?

Poacher Pleads Guilty
Colorado Division of Wildlife

Posted on: 09/26/03

An Iowa man accused of illegally killing trophy-size elk and mule deer in Colorado’s backcountry and transporting them across state lines for commercial sale pleaded guilty Tuesday to federal charges in what authorities are calling one of the biggest poaching investigations in Colorado and Iowa history.

George Allen Waters, 53, a farmer from West Branch, Iowa, pleaded guilty to two felony violations of the Lacey Act, a federal wildlife protection law, and one felony charge of illegal possession of a machine gun. State and federal wildlife authorities said Waters admitted to poaching 45 trophy-quality animals valued at $270,000 from locations in Colorado and Iowa beginning in 1992. He pleaded guilty to the interstate transportation and sale of 38 illegally killed trophy white-tailed deer, elk and mule deer. Authorities said Waters took 14 animals from western Colorado and 24 from Iowa....

Following an undercover investigation, state and federal wildlife agents served federal search warrants at Waters’ residence on May 21. Wildlife agents gathered several trailer loads of evidence and conducted numerous interviews with witnesses, authorities said.

DOW investigator Glenn Smith said the agency had seen other large poaching cases. However, he noted that this one involved a large number of illegally taken big-game animals, the commercial sale and transportation of the animals, and “brazen disregard for wildlife laws, wildlife officers and the public.”

During the course of their investigation, authorities determined that Waters camouflaged animal heads before stashing them in trees, returning later to claim them as “found heads.” Wildlife authorities said Waters left the carcasses to rot. They said Waters later admitted to poaching eight trophy elk and six mule deer in Colorado, using out-dated licenses and tags to disguise his trophies. In Iowa, he admitted to killing 24 trophy-size white tail deer. The illegal hunting activities occurred between 1992 and 2002, state and federal wildlife officials said.

Authorities said Waters traveled to southwest Colorado, near the Uncompahgre National Forest, to hunt for trophy-size elk and deer with a rifle during archery season and without a license. DOW authorities were tipped to the hunting expeditions and subsequently launched an investigation, working with Iowa and federal wildlife law-enforcement agents. Investigators went undercover to gather evidence.

Colorado wildlife investigators said the probe into Waters’ activities accelerated last year when a DOW officer in Montrose County searched a suspicious camp and discovered a freshly killed elk carcass. Authorities said a vehicle with Iowa license plates associated with the camp belonged to one of Waters’ relatives, but the hunters left the camp before DOW officers could question them.

Smith said DOW District Manager Brandon Diamond, who is based in Nucla, Colo., found a camouflaged set of elk antlers not far from the campsite. The antlers had been taken from a large six-point bull and were about 12 feet up in a large tree. Smith said they had been covered with tape and fresh pine boughs. Other pieces of old tape at the base of the tree indicated it had been used before to hide antlers.

“Unless he stood directly under the large tree, there was no way he could have seen the antlers. And, even then, it was very difficult to see,” Smith said. “Without (Diamond’s) desire and tenacity, we would never have found those antlers. And without those antlers, there would not have been any investigation.”

DOW officials said agency law-enforcement officers later photographed and videotaped the scene and meticulously collected and processed antlers, an elk carcass, and other evidence. The evidence was taken to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service National Wildlife Forensic Lab in Ashland, Ore., where technicians concluded the antlers were from the carcass found near the camp and that one of two fingerprints found belonged to Waters.

Smith said the Waters case is among the worst he’s seen in 30 years of wildlife management. The DOW first received tips about Waters’ hunting activity via Colorado’s Operation Game Thief phone tip line in 2001 and 2002. Aside from DOW wildlife manager Brandon Diamond, Smith credits several other individuals with bringing the poaching investigation to a successful conclusion, including Assistant U.S. Attorney Jeffrey Lang; federal agents Kevin Ellis and Justin Mays; Iowa’s Chief of Law Enforcement Lowell Johnson; and DOW criminal investigator Eric Schaller.

Smith said the more wildlife officers learned about Waters and his activities, the more they realized they had “a ruthless poacher on their hands.”

“Waters was not into poaching for the meat. He was into it for self-gratification, ego and for money,” Smith said.
http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Colorado/Poacher_Pleads_Guilty_09260311.html

 

[Moosie]

You know, that is a good post. But what does "Backcountry" mean ? I go to the Backcountry all the time in a truck he traveled and Poached. at 52, trust me he didn't pack in far to pull out some critters.

I usually don't get into the Pissing match down here but More roads = More people = More poaching. trust me, Easy access = dumb decisions. More animals get poached from the roads then Back country I'm sure.

I talked to the Head F&G enforcer here and he said that if they could "STOP" poaching from the road they could give out 2 times as many tags a year.... 2 Times !

 

[MattK]

Hey- couple short of a 12 pack: Am I to assume you like getting posts erased and topics being locked...Way to go pal, keep up the good work.

The article doesn't say how far back the animals were taken. It doesn't even say remote. What is their definition of "back country". They obviously had a fairly large camp set up.

I wouldn't argue there is poaching done in remote sections of all states. I would argue that most poaching is done close to roads. The worst cases will be done by those who are the most cagy and stay away from other people. The FWP will not stop the "best" poachers unless the poachers really screw up or the FWP get lucky.

That being said, there are still more cases where access is greater. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. They caught hundreds with an elk decoy set up in an area I hunt. They were all caught in a weeks time. (Shooting early, no license, shooting late, shooting from a vehicle, shooting from a roadway, etc.)

 

[Ten Bears]

Hey- couple short of a 12 pack: Am I to assume you like getting posts erased and topics being locked...Way to go pal, keep up the good work. I'm not even going to address the name calling issue any further then this statement.

The article doesn't say how far back the animals were taken. It doesn't even say remote. What is their definition of "back country". They obviously had a fairly large camp set up. Give us a good definition of "back country". As for the part about a large camp, so do most horsepackers and outfitters.

I wouldn't argue there is poaching done in remote sections of all states. I would argue that most poaching is done close to roads. The worst cases will be done by those who are the most cagy and stay away from other people. = remote locations(?) How do you stay close to roads, but away from people? The FWP will not stop the "best" poachers unless the poachers really screw up or the FWP get lucky. Boastful?

That being said, there are still more cases where access is greater. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. They caught hundreds with an elk decoy set up in an area I hunt. They were all caught in a weeks time. (Shooting early, no license, shooting late, shooting from a vehicle, shooting from a roadway, etc.) How many is "hundreds"? Do you have a source to cite, a link, a report?

 

[Nemont]

Less Access = Less People = Less Probability of getting Caught

That is an extreme over simplification of what is taking place. Would you say that there are more animals poached near roads or not? Not only are more animals poached but more poachers are caught near roads. You have a pretty pathetic premise that less access means more poaching.

Less access may mean less chance of getting caught but it also means less poaching, period. That is the reason mature trophy animals are more likely to be taken in remote areas. They are not poached or even legally killed as fork horns because there is limited access. There is not a doubt that poaching can and does take place in "back country" areas but the MAJORITY of poachers prefer to shoot critters out the window of their pickup while sucking on a Winston and gulping a cold can of Schmidt.

Nemont

 

[Ten Bears]

MOOSEMAN, How far does your dad pack in bear bait?

"More roads = More people = More poaching... Easy access = dumb decisions." So does a long week of hunting in remote country with little success, and then seeing a good animal near the road on the way home (typially = bad decision). More animals get poached from the roads then Back country I'm sure. I think it is a matter of the number of people both for the number of poachings committed and seen reported (hence, less people = less probability of getting caught)

"I talked to the Head F&G enforcer here and he said that if they could "STOP" poaching from the road they could give out 2 times as many tags a year.... 2 Times !" I doubt he was talking realistically. He may have meant that they could estimate that the poaching harvest equals the legal harvest.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, You're back on my "ignore" list. Everytime I think you can't come up with anything more stupid, you come up with something like this "less access means more poaching" idiocy.

You'll try anything to convince people we need more roads and more vehicle access so you don't have to get your lazy ass off that ATV.

BTW, How's the job search going?

 

[FAIRCHASEBEN]

Less common sense = Less intelligent posts = Ten Bears

 

[MattK]

TB- Have you ever hunted? It's easy to stay away from people and close to roads if you want to be illegal...Hunt at night! I think Moosie explained it best and no need to get into further.

As for the "boastful" comment....You truly are a dumbass aren't you. I have never poached nor will I. You write that to the wrong person and you will get in trouble. As a hunter, it is about the worst accusation you can put toward an individual...

 

[cjcj]

Well here is my take...A trophy poacher might pack in to kill record book game... if its for big money he will do whatever it takes....But we have also had trophy elk poached right near the highway...we also have had trophy elk poached almost inside the Flagstaff city limits. So sometimes its a crime of opportunity... some dickhead is driving along on a ROAD drinking and they see a huge bull so the freaking a-hole shoots it and cuts off the horns. so its a mix... but I.M.O. roads creat MORE opportunity for scumbag poachers. Thats my thinking.

 

[MattK]

cjcj- mark it on your calendar, we agree on something....

 

[Quiet_One]

well good read cant believe people who hunt well ones in the storie wreck it like that i mean go find ur own dont illegally kill any only gets u deeper in life and hell no i would never violate any of the huntin laws have bills now

 

[BuzzH]

I'm sure glad that a majority of hunters have more sense than ten beers...

Only a complete idiot would ever think that less access=more poaching.

Its also pretty pathetic that a person would stoop to the low of having to defend ATV use and open roads by making such unfounded claims. Without proof, its just another ridiculous opinion, and a wrong one at that.

 

[Ten Bears]

David C. Cooper, 47, of Merriam, Kan.; Gary D. Henderson, 44, of Louisburg, Kan.; and Karl I. Sparks, 39, of Shawnee, Kan., were accused of poaching elk near the rugged La Garita Wilderness Area.

The three men pleaded guilty to multiple big-game hunting violations and have to pay fines totaling more than $45,000.

"These guys were engaged in intentional, premeditated poaching, and it happened over a long period of time," said Brian Bechaver, a Colorado Division of Wildlife (DOW) district wildlife manager who led a three-year investigation into the poaching case.

Bechaver said the men purchased over-the-counter hunting licenses, but later hiked into a remote, limited-license hunting area to take trophy-size bull elk.

Investigators suspect the men had been engaging in such activity as far back as 1987.
http://www.naweoa.org/article.php?sid=71

I see I've been accused of saying "Less access = More poaching". PROVE IT.

 

[BuzzH]

Look, another post by ten beers that proves some people, do, in fact poach.

Glad thats cleared up.

 

[SageGhost]

reply

kind of off topic but if selling antlers made it to where if you put a cap on out of state hunters,it is prohibiting (interstate commerce) then you could argue that less access to hunt land is hindering (interstate commerce) anybody else willing to pay 1500.oo retainer to find out if all this (wilderness area designation) is hindering (interstate commerce).

 

[BuzzH]

No, you are not excluding anyone. If a NR wants to hunt wilderness all they have to do is walk in and hunt...or in the the case of WY know a resident or hire a guide...but you arent telling them they cant hunt there. You arent hindering their right to hunt there...just the form of transportation in getting there. I mean, at what point would that arguement end? We all have to have equal access to ALL lands...so every last acre must have a road through it...so its fair to everyone? Do the states then have to provide ATV's and 4-wheel drives to all hunters so we're not intefering with those with only 2-wheel drive vehicles ability to benefit from interstate commerce?

I doubt a court would even entertain that argument. At some point common sense will take over.

 

[Ten Bears]

Ten beers, you are one clueless individual. A vast majority of poaching occurs near roads. Poachers are lazy, they dont want to work for their critters. If they worked hard enough to hunt legally, they wouldnt poach.

The people that take hunting serious and hike in, scout, do their homework are committed enough and care enough to not only be successful, but also care enough about the sport and the wildlife to closely observe game laws.Ten beers, you are one clueless individual. A vast majority of poaching occurs near roads. Poachers are lazy, they dont want to work for their critters. If they worked hard enough to hunt legally, they wouldnt poach.

The people that take hunting serious and hike in, scout, do their homework are committed enough and care enough to not only be successful, but also care enough about the sport and the wildlife to closely observe game laws. These same people are the VERY ones that have legislated a bulk of the game laws.

The people that take poaching seriously take time to hike/pack in also, or use other means to isolate their activity away from others. Isn't that correct BUZZ?

 

[BuzzH]

Ten beers,

You are the only one on this thread who does not believe that a majority of poaching occurs in areas with easy access...why do you suppose that is???? You're right and everyone else is wrong?

More poaching happens in easy access areas than 20 miles back in the Frank Church...ask your local game warden.

My contention is that people who buy horses, work up loads for their firearms, teach hunters ed, take youngsters out hunting, scout, hike back in further, etc. are MUCH less likely to poach anywhere than some happy-jack riding down a road with a rifle and a twelve pack. More access leads to more poaching.

Most seem to agree...cjcj, oak, 1-pointer, miller, mattk, moosie, moosies warden buddy, ithaca, myself...

Keep posting away...with each post you make less and less sense...and other posters see what kind of an idiot you truly are.

I'll ask again, since you didnt answer the first time. If people who hunt remote areas poach as much as people who hunt off the road...why do wardens set up decoys near roads then? Why dont they use similar techniques to catch people who hunt in hard to access areas? Which group do they believe is poaching more? HMMMM??? Real tough question.

 

[cjcj]

Buzz i`m not so sure that the decoy is set up to catch just "poachers" ... at least as far as the general use down here they have been using them to get legally licenced hunters.. that shoot out of a vehicle while on the road.... if the same licenced hunter stops the truck, walks off the side of the road and shoots the decoy, then he is legal and can`t be cited........Ten Bears i think you have to admit that more roads would increase the "opportunity type" of poaching... you know the dickweed dork who went out for a drive[not intending] to poach but see`s the "big one" and shoots it. We have some of these a-holes down here who do it... and i can tell you alot of them don`t speak english [ sorry] here i go again.


Note to self on 3/11/05 CJ and Matt agreed on something!!!! WOW.. that is historic.