Lead fragments in hunter harvested deer

[BWALKER77]

I chitchatted with Leland at there booth at the BHA rende. When I questioned him on the performance, especially at distance/lower velocity he walked me through a paper from Germany that looked that concluded that although the call copper doesn't expand as much at low speeds they typically retain either a flat or convex nose which still creates as large or larger wound channel do to the increase energy wave propagation as the larger diameter lead bullets since almost all lead bullets end up with at least a very slightly rounded nose.

I was holding back on switching because I couldn't get any to choose very well, thankfully I threw it out to the HT community on several people gave me there recipes, which are significant improvements over they groups I had gotten on my own.

The reason lead bullets kill quicker is the shrapnel effect of bits of lead flying everywhere. Its no secret that the fastest killing lead based bullets are bullets like the Berger VLD which shed most of their weight.

 

[BWALKER77]

The copper on solids is different than it is on jacketed bullets and some say it can foul your barrel quicker. JBs is a good way to get rid of copper fouling

The newer mono metel bullets dont foul excessivly. Some of them like Barnes are solid copper, others like the etip and gmx are made from guilding metal, which is the same material thats used to make jackets for lead and copper bullets.

 

[BWALKER77]

Here’s a reason.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/rifle-barrels-why-copper-fouling-kills-accuracy#page-2

With the advent of foaming bore cleaners I wouldn't waste time using JB. My prarie dog guns are shot for 500 rounds or more without issue, but I treat the bores with ultra bore coat when new. If I had a gun that required cleaning every time I shot it, it would go down the road quick.

 

[Washington Hunter]

I switched many years ago to copper.Used some Barnes Federal,until I ran out,& it was no longer available.
Then moved to Nosler Accubonds,which are almost same thing with the same excellent performance in my rifle....maybe better ammo overall from my old Fed ammo. I still use steel for everything except rabbits in my shotgun.

Accubonds or e-Tips?

 

[BWALKER77]

FWIW accubonds shed about half their weight and they work pretty damn good, but not so good for keeping lead out meat.

 

[hank4elk]

Accubonds or e-Tips?

Accubonds,Nosler Trophy ammo 165's in 30-06.
I have recovered 2,both had only lost a petal or 2, not much weight really.Most shots have been 30cal going in & 3/4" exit holes.
If I was hunting in a copper only area I would have to try E-tips again.They did not work as good during my tests.Different ammo now tho than then. I do like the Trophy ammo.

 

[Paul in Idaho]

When I first heard about the potential harm of lead bullets I was skeptical. I read everything I could find on the topic. Then I remembered the heart from my last buck was still in the freezer. That buck was shot with a 180-grain Partition from my .30-06. The bullet hit the aorta a few inches away from the heart. There was no hole or any visible damage to the heart when I prepped it for freezing. I have always processed my own venison, and am meticulous in removing all visible damage and debris.

Since I wanted to see for myself if bullet fragmentation is real, I asked my vet if he would x-ray the heart for me. He did, and I was shocked when I saw the film. Even though the bullet was of premium quality and had not impacted the heart, there were more than 20 metallic fragments visible in the x-ray. Most of the fragments were tiny, like ground black pepper.

I bought my first box of factory cartridges with copper bullets soon after that. I found a 150 grain bullet delivered the best groups my rifle ever shot. My current preferred load is the Barnes 150 grain TTSX.

 

[GAoutdoors]

Has anyone heard of non-lead getting much traction in the midwest/east/southern US? I've only used Hornady GMX in CO and WY for the past ~5 years and see no to reason to go back to lead. However, when I go back to WI to rifle hunt every fall, I don't think any of my friends there have ever considered switching to non-lead. The majority of guys have the same five year old half-empty box of Core Lokts or blue box federal in their truck, and don't give a lot of thought to bullet selection (much less switching to non-lead). It seems like most of the discussion regarding non-lead bullets has been around focused on the west in relation to raptors there, but I wonder if there is much discussion going on in the East since deer kills there are measured in the 100s of thousands annually?

I have seen the same in the Southeast. Nobody I know shoots lead free. A lot of them just shot whatever is the cheapest and available.

That is a really good point about the amount of possible lead ingested by animals on deer gut piles. It must not affect the coyotes, maybe too big? It would be interesting to see some research.

 

[jumpshooter]

So, as a California Resident, we switched 10 years ago in the condor range. We were required to do so by our Fish & Game Commission. Now the entire state is about to go lead free. Not sure what to do with the thousands of rounds we have at home.... Additionally, we now can't buy ammunition online which really sucks.

The funny thing is that in those 10 years, lead levels are still extremely elevated. What wasn't talked about in this discussion is why condors are seeing continued high levels of lead even though the lead has been outlawed for 10 years now (2008) in those areas where we have condors. There are several groups of birds, some in the Big Sur area, some in the Hollister/Pinnacles Nat. Monument, and then the group near 4 corners in the Arizona/Nevada/Utah border. As a biologist, I understand lead poisoning and why we have switched, but there is more going on out there than we understand at this point. I hope that other states take the time to understand what is occurring in the environment. These two areas in Ca are some of the most remote areas of California. Pinnacles Nation Monument and Big Sur are both closed to hunting and while there is hunting on some private lands in and around Pinnacles, it isn't a hot bed. Big Sur is close to Fort Hunter Legget which fires a lot of lead bullets ha ha... but not a too many animals. It is also close to the Los Padres National Forest, which isn't heavily hunted, but it is hunted. A fair number of condors have been observed feeding on marine mammals. Not sure if there is any connection there.

An interesting question to ponder, each condor costs about $1,000,000 to maintain. In numerous cases, we have to capture and recapture these birds to look at their lead levels in their blood. We aren't seeing decreases and when the entire state goes lead free, what will be the repercussion if lead levels stay high in the birds? What if there aren't decreases in lead levels (even though lead has been banned already within the entire range where they live)?

There are a lot of things at play here and overall, we will be better by removing lead from gut piles where vultures, eagles and other raptors as well as other mammals have a possibility to ingest lead fragments.

 

[BWALKER77]

When I first heard about the potential harm of lead bullets I was skeptical. I read everything I could find on the topic. Then I remembered the heart from my last buck was still in the freezer. That buck was shot with a 180-grain Partition from my .30-06. The bullet hit the aorta a few inches away from the heart. There was no hole or any visible damage to the heart when I prepped it for freezing. I have always processed my own venison, and am meticulous in removing all visible damage and debris.

Since I wanted to see for myself if bullet fragmentation is real, I asked my vet if he would x-ray the heart for me. He did, and I was shocked when I saw the film. Even though the bullet was of premium quality and had not impacted the heart, there were more than 20 metallic fragments visible in the x-ray. Most of the fragments were tiny, like ground black pepper.

I bought my first box of factory cartridges with copper bullets soon after that. I found a 150 grain bullet delivered the best groups my rifle ever shot. My current preferred load is the Barnes 150 grain TTSX.

Thanks for the post. Not supprised with the results.

 

[JLS]

I have seen the same in the Southeast. Nobody I know shoots lead free. A lot of them just shot whatever is the cheapest and available.

That is a really good point about the amount of possible lead ingested by animals on deer gut piles. It must not affect the coyotes, maybe too big? It would be interesting to see some research.

Lead ingestion affects raptors much differently than mammalian carnivores.

 

[belly-deep]

I’m not going to quit using lead bullets. Too many of them are too good.

But I have started using copper bullets more, and when I have kids eating venison, I’ll probably shoot copper exclusively.

Like Steve Rinella says, we’re not done making mistakes. I’m not convinced they are harmful, as generations of hunters ate lead-killed meat for years with no apparent effect. But it might be one of those things we look back on in 40 years and say “I can’t believe we did that.”

I don’t know enough about chemistry and medicine to try and argue either side.

 

[Carlin59]

Lead ingestion affects raptors much differently than mammalian carnivores.

To my point, the eastern states kill huge numbers of big game animals with firearms compared to the western states, so I'm surprised there hasn't been more study on the lead effects on raptors in those areas (or maybe there has been a lot of study on it, and it just isn't discussed as much?). Totally anecdotally, in my home state of WI, the firearm deer kill has averaged 300k+ annually for 30 years, and in that time bald eagle numbers have increased to record numbers as well. While that sounds good, I would love to know if (and to what degree) lead may be affecting bald eagles and other raptors in the upper midwest? Those raptors are contending not only with lead fragments from big game gut piles/carcasses, but also lead in the water related to fish/fishing, in the woods with unrecovered small game, and upland birds shot with lead as well.

 

[LWC55]

So, as a California Resident, we switched 10 years ago in the condor range. We were required to do so by our Fish & Game Commission. Now the entire state is about to go lead free. Not sure what to do with the thousands of rounds we have at home.... Additionally, we now can't buy ammunition online which really sucks.

The funny thing is that in those 10 years, lead levels are still extremely elevated. What wasn't talked about in this discussion is why condors are seeing continued high levels of lead even though the lead has been outlawed for 10 years now (2008) in those areas where we have condors. There are several groups of birds, some in the Big Sur area, some in the Hollister/Pinnacles Nat. Monument, and then the group near 4 corners in the Arizona/Nevada/Utah border. As a biologist, I understand lead poisoning and why we have switched, but there is more going on out there than we understand at this point. I hope that other states take the time to understand what is occurring in the environment. These two areas in Ca are some of the most remote areas of California. Pinnacles Nation Monument and Big Sur are both closed to hunting and while there is hunting on some private lands in and around Pinnacles, it isn't a hot bed. Big Sur is close to Fort Hunter Legget which fires a lot of lead bullets ha ha... but not a too many animals. It is also close to the Los Padres National Forest, which isn't heavily hunted, but it is hunted. A fair number of condors have been observed feeding on marine mammals. Not sure if there is any connection there.

An interesting question to ponder, each condor costs about $1,000,000 to maintain. In numerous cases, we have to capture and recapture these birds to look at their lead levels in their blood. We aren't seeing decreases and when the entire state goes lead free, what will be the repercussion if lead levels stay high in the birds? What if there aren't decreases in lead levels (even though lead has been banned already within the entire range where they live)?

There are a lot of things at play here and overall, we will be better by removing lead from gut piles where vultures, eagles and other raptors as well as other mammals have a possibility to ingest lead fragments.

These are very good questions. But like most political issues, I'm afraid the decisions will be governed by emotion rather than science.

 

[jryoung]

FWIW. Several years ago, I was at a breakfast function at the Wild Turkey convention in Nashville and sat next to a lady from the USFS. She read my state as being from Arizona and asked if I was familiar with the No. Kaibab. I've Turkey and deer hunted there for 35+ years. Turns out she was the head of the Endangered Species Dept. for the USFS in DC. I mean she was the top dog!!! Anyway, we started talking about the California Condor and non toxic ammo being used for deer and varmint hunting as well as turkey. I told her that I wished the condors well and understood that situation. I did ask her a question for which she had no answer. If lead fragments are toxic for the condors, why is it that the turkey vultures, that are closely related to condors, and the ravens don't seem to have any problems? They are not suffering any die offs or neurotoxicity that is apparent, and their numbers appear to be stable or growing. She replied very honestly that no studies had ever been done on them and the effects of consumed lead. I wish I remembered her name to ask her if the USFWS have since studied this. It's an interesting question. GJ

There are a couple of different issues here. First, there has been a study on turkey vultures, as well as golden eagles.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0017656

When the Ridley-Tree Condor Act went into place (the initial lead free zone) both turkey vultures and golden eagles saw improved levels of lead contamination. There have also been studies done at Grand Teton National Park after the elk hunt and that is why it is now lead free too. Specifically, for turkey vultures they are simply far more abundant and don't feed in family groups like the condors.

When I first met Chris, this was my question to him based on the above study. Why are other species seeing improvement when condors are not especially when CDFW notes very high compliance? He looked at me and said, "you've done you're homework, I love it man, we're gonna be friends"

He said it was partly the way condors scavenge compared to turkey vultures, sample size (just too few condors), and right about the same time the ban went into place the feeding program for them either stopped or slowed so they (researchers) had less control over their diet and greater potential for contamination if they were to find a contaminated source.

 

[Zach]

Regarding raptors, these signs are going up in CA.

 

[Power54]

So, as a California Resident, we switched 10 years ago in the condor range. We were required to do so by our Fish & Game Commission. Now the entire state is about to go lead free. Not sure what to do with the thousands of rounds we have at home.... Additionally, we now can't buy ammunition online which really sucks.

The funny thing is that in those 10 years, lead levels are still extremely elevated. What wasn't talked about in this discussion is why condors are seeing continued high levels of lead even though the lead has been outlawed for 10 years now (2008) in those areas where we have condors. There are several groups of birds, some in the Big Sur area, some in the Hollister/Pinnacles Nat. Monument, and then the group near 4 corners in the Arizona/Nevada/Utah border. As a biologist, I understand lead poisoning and why we have switched, but there is more going on out there than we understand at this point. I hope that other states take the time to understand what is occurring in the environment. These two areas in Ca are some of the most remote areas of California. Pinnacles Nation Monument and Big Sur are both closed to hunting and while there is hunting on some private lands in and around Pinnacles, it isn't a hot bed. Big Sur is close to Fort Hunter Legget which fires a lot of lead bullets ha ha... but not a too many animals. It is also close to the Los Padres National Forest, which isn't heavily hunted, but it is hunted. A fair number of condors have been observed feeding on marine mammals. Not sure if there is any connection there.

An interesting question to ponder, each condor costs about $1,000,000 to maintain. In numerous cases, we have to capture and recapture these birds to look at their lead levels in their blood. We aren't seeing decreases and when the entire state goes lead free, what will be the repercussion if lead levels stay high in the birds? What if there aren't decreases in lead levels (even though lead has been banned already within the entire range where they live)?

There are a lot of things at play here and overall, we will be better by removing lead from gut piles where vultures, eagles and other raptors as well as other mammals have a possibility to ingest lead fragments.

It's probably because people are still using lead and a great example of why mandates are BS. Like Chris and Leland said on the podcast, education is the answer. If people decide to switch on their own, it's best for everyone (and for the birds).

 

[Power54]

To my point, the eastern states kill huge numbers of big game animals with firearms compared to the western states, so I'm surprised there hasn't been more study on the lead effects on raptors in those areas (or maybe there has been a lot of study on it, and it just isn't discussed as much?). Totally anecdotally, in my home state of WI, the firearm deer kill has averaged 300k+ annually for 30 years, and in that time bald eagle numbers have increased to record numbers as well. While that sounds good, I would love to know if (and to what degree) lead may be affecting bald eagles and other raptors in the upper midwest? Those raptors are contending not only with lead fragments from big game gut piles/carcasses, but also lead in the water related to fish/fishing, in the woods with unrecovered small game, and upland birds shot with lead as well.

This paper wasn't upper midwest specific but includes many birds recovered in the upper midwest.
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70134826

Work done by UM supports your idea that small game/upland birds also may be a source. They also say gutpiles are likely the primary source.
https://www.raptor.umn.edu/our-research/lead-poisoning

 

[Carlin59]

Thanks for sharing, good reads.

 

[Ben Lamb]

This paper wasn't upper midwest specific but includes many birds recovered in the upper midwest.
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70134826

Work done by UM supports your idea that small game/upland birds also may be a source. They also say gutpiles are likely the primary source.
https://www.raptor.umn.edu/our-research/lead-poisoning

Based on conversations with biologists and wardens, one of the contributing factors is prairie dog shooting. Millions of rounds expended each year, where the carcass is left behind entirely for scavengers. That's a lot of lead in the blood streams of raptors.