Lead fragments in hunter harvested deer

[VikingsGuy]

How high or drunk were you when you wrote this? Can you go back and read this with a straight face?

Not at all and yes - thank you for your thoughtful and constructive response.

Canada has used differential conservation licenses in angling for years - give the sportsman a choice while furthering conservation goals - not rocket science. Nor is the concept of addressing environmental “externalities”. But I get it, the “my grandpappy did it that way and I’ll never change crowd won’t like it.

 

[JohnCushman]

So, you want to punish people for having a different view?

 

[UTK14]

If different views and actions bear a societal cost, that should be accounted for, no?

It's all about providing incentive for people to curtail behaviors that create negative externalities(Note, that these aren't just perceived externalities.) It would provide a mechanism for compliance that also doesn't force the hand of those who do not wish to shoot non-lead projectiles.

While I'm unsure that the implementation of such a strategy is likely in many states, and I don't know that the gut-pile provision is feasible, I think it's short-sighted to dismiss something like Vikingsguy's suggestion.

 

[JohnCushman]

SO, the guy that stocked up on core lokts and Federal blue boxes because his rifle shoots them well should pay more because he spent less on ammo he could afford and shoot well? Naa, dude. How would you implement this difference in license cost when buying a license? Would you have to hold up one of your hunting bullets at the counter at Walmart every year when you get your hunting license? The whole idea is silly and not enforceable. While, the idea of not hurting wildlife is a valiant one, you can't force someone into compliance or pick and choose what animals you're protecting.

 

[VikingsGuy]

So, you want to punish people for having a different view?

I never raised the concept of punishment, and the straw idea would treat those who agree and those who disagree that same, so don't fully understand your remark.

 

[VikingsGuy]

SO, the guy that stocked up on core lokts and Federal blue boxes because his rifle shoots them well should pay more because he spent less on ammo he could afford and shoot well? Naa, dude. How would you implement this difference in license cost when buying a license? Would you have to hold up one of your hunting bullets at the counter at Walmart every year when you get your hunting license? The whole idea is silly and not enforceable. While, the idea of not hurting wildlife is a valiant one, you can't force someone into compliance or pick and choose what animals you're protecting.

Enforcement would be as easy or hard as any W&F reg - if the game warden stops you and you have a lead-free tag but lead in your guns then you are in violation of your license. Doe the Walmart counter ask for proof of sex when you buy and OTC doe tag?

As for you r concern that you can't force people to comply, it is just not the case - if it were, I would be tax-free. Similarly, you can pick and choose the animals you're protecting, or I would be wolf hunting up at my cabin this year.

 

[BuzzH]

The idea of charging 2 different prices for a license depending on what bullet you shoot, while a good theory, just isn't going to happen in reality.

Its a stretch getting legislators to understand the difference between Resident and Non Resident license fee's.

I cant even imagine the questions and out-right stupidity you'd hear trying to explain mono-metal versus cup and core bullets to a legislative body...and then getting them to come up with a fee schedule for that?

Good luck....

 

[VikingsGuy]

The idea of charging 2 different prices for a license depending on what bullet you shoot, while a good theory, just isn't going to happen in reality.

Its a stretch getting legislators to understand the difference between Resident and Non Resident license fee's.

I cant even imagine the questions and out-right stupidity you'd hear trying to explain mono-metal versus cup and core bullets to a legislative body...and then getting them to come up with a fee schedule for that?

Good luck....

I agree. Just floating a vague idea, not advocating legislation. 1% chance it would go anywhere if it was pushed, and since it was just a random thought and no one is pushing it, the odds are officially 0%.

More generally I do think many of the "all or nothing battlegrounds" we are stuck in these days do lend themselves to creative middle ground - but nobody wants middle ground, they was to stamp their feet and call everyone else evil while hoping to prevail without change.

 

[BuzzH]

Vikingsguy,

I, for one, appreciate the out of the box thinking and the idea you provided.

My comment was more to the point that, at least in Wyoming, changing fee schedules would require legislation. My experience is that anything related to fee increases or Game and Fish issues in general, you're dealing with a very uninformed bunch.

Plus, anything that would reduce funding, like charging one group less for using a specific bullet type, would go over like a lead balloon...pun be intended.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I understood your note and wasn’t so much responding to it as extending the general discussion. [Pun appreciated].

 

[huronmtns]

First off I'm a going to come out and say "Do I think changing from lead projectiles is a good idea" - Yes I do.

Next comment is on factual evidence.


I have been eating game animals annually, including deer, ducks, geese, rabbits, and other game birds harvested with lead projectiles for more than 45 years.


At my request two years ago I had my blood tested at Mayo Clinic for lead. The results were " No lead detected". The reason I am putting this out there is there is probably some fear that is being generated by this thread toward human consumption of game that has been harvested with lead projectiles. I'm laying this out there for a data point to evaluate.

 

[Paul in Idaho]

At my request two years ago I had my blood tested at Mayo Clinic for lead. The results were " No lead detected".

The info quoted below is about lead in general, not bullets. I'm not claiming lead bullet fragments are a proven cause of human health problems. Knowing that lead from any source can potentially cause health problems years or decades later makes me want to avoid all origins within my control.

Lead disappears from blood fairly soon - 28 to 36 days according to some studies. I wonder what the results would be if they were able to sample your bones. It stays there for decades. This page from the CDC is not for light reading but if you can get through the science/medical language there is helpful information - https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=9

For consideration:

Several large epidemiological studies have found that older people have higher blood and bone lead levels than younger adults ... Although lead within bone is of uncertain toxicity to bone tissue, conditions of bone resorption, such as osteoporosis, can cause bone lead to reenter the bloodstream where it can then re-expose the soft tissue, and, potentially, exert delayed deleterious effects. Evidence is emerging that blood and bone lead levels, reflecting relatively modest exposures, are associated with hypertension, renal insufficiency, and cognitive impairment.

The above quote is from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11083332

---
Unrelated to the above notes, I found this while looking for bone lead info. I had never heard this before:

Absorption of lead increases with pregnancy. Pregnant women absorb up to 85% of the lead to which they are exposed. Research indicates that lead in pregnant women can cross the placenta, affecting children even before they are born.

From https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/Healt...cuments/introhealtheffectsmedicalprovider.pdf

 

[BWALKER77]

Do not take this wrong, it is a sincere question - on what objective evidence do you draw this conclusion?

I asked a question and did not draw a conclusion.

 

[Bigjay73]

First off I'm a going to come out and say "Do I think changing from lead projectiles is a good idea" - Yes I do.

Next comment is on factual evidence.


I have been eating game animals annually, including deer, ducks, geese, rabbits, and other game birds harvested with lead projectiles for more than 45 years.


At my request two years ago I had my blood tested at Mayo Clinic for lead. The results were " No lead detected". The reason I am putting this out there is there is probably some fear that is being generated by this thread toward human consumption of game that has been harvested with lead projectiles. I'm laying this out there for a data point to evaluate.

Pretty much everything I read from unbiased sources tell the same tale.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I asked a question and did not draw a conclusion.

You posed a question and immediately followed it with, "I would say no." - I would call that a conclusion and that was what I was inquiring about.

 

[BWALKER77]

You posed a question and immediately followed it with, "I would say no." - I would call that a conclusion and that was what I was inquiring about.

That was my anecdotal opinion. If I thought it was conclusive I would not have prefaced it with a question.

 

[BWALKER77]

Pretty much everything I read from unbiased sources tell the same tale.

Lead hides out in your bones and ckears the blood relatively fast. Its qlso worth noting that it doesnt havent to hang out in the body long in order to cause harm. Especially in young children.
I would also expect the great majority of lead particles from game meat to never enter your blood stream. Instead its passed out in your stool. However what little does make it too you blood entires your bones where it doesnt leave for a very long time.

 

[Elkmagnet]

First off I'm a going to come out and say "Do I think changing from lead projectiles is a good idea" - Yes I do.

Next comment is on factual evidence.


I have been eating game animals annually, including deer, ducks, geese, rabbits, and other game birds harvested with lead projectiles for more than 45 years.


At my request two years ago I had my blood tested at Mayo Clinic for lead. The results were " No lead detected". The reason I am putting this out there is there is probably some fear that is being generated by this thread toward human consumption of game that has been harvested with lead projectiles. I'm laying this out there for a data point to evaluate.

It nice to know you didn't have any current exposure.
Now if we all got bone biopsies we could compare our lifetime exposure.
A study of liver, kidneys, lungs, brain, spleen, muscles, and heart
biopsies with a control of non hunters would be beneficial. But then everyone would just claim fake news and continue to think whatever they think anyway.
It's a well proven fact that bones act as a lead filter for your blood. It then becomes trapped.
The biologic half life of lead in bone can be 25-30 years.

 

[BWALKER77]

It nice to know you didn't have any current exposure.
Now if we all got bone biopsies we could compare our lifetime exposure.
A study of liver, kidneys, lungs, brain, spleen, muscles, and heart
biopsies with a control of non hunters would be beneficial. But then everyone would just claim fake news and continue to think whatever they think anyway.
It's a well proven fact that bones act as a lead filter for your blood. It then becomes trapped.
The biologic half life of lead in bone can be 25-30 years.

Spot on.

 

[huronmtns]

A little research on the Mayo Clinic web site has turned up this information:

There is no safe blood level of lead. However, a level of 5 mcg/dL is used to indicate a possibly unsafe level for children. Children whose blood tests at those levels should be tested periodically. A child whose levels become too high — generally 45 mcg/dL or higher — should be treated.