Land locked property

[ELKCHSR]

Craig...

I wasn't rude to you or anyone else, I'm sorry if you took it personally, maybe you need to step back and take a breath

Maybe you should read all the way thru my comment and just answer the question instead of just knee jerking your answer out of context with the subject...


To answer your question...

No, I'm not high, I'm not sure what that has to do with this topic anyway, or how my comment would have led you to such an accusation?

It's not me or you setting prices...

It's simple supply and demand, apparently this is what the market (according to your bosses) will bare when it comes to cost analysis, or they would be charging more...

It's your bosses who are the problem here, so I'm not the one to be taking out your frustrations on just because we disagree...

Maybe you and a bunch of others who don't think it's right should show up at the next session where they set these prices and beat your drum...

 

[TOM IN TENNESSEE]

I killed my first Antelope with a bud from Baker on private ranch land (and my second and third), killed my first muley hunting with same bud on Private ranch land along with the next four muleys, killed my first Merriams hunting with my bud, and second one, on private ranch land, killed our Pheasants and Sharp Tail years in a row hunting on Private Ranch Land.....ususally all had some BLM leases.....quit even hunting Eastern MT as did my bud who is now in Wolf Point because of fugging OUTFITTERS leasing the land which of course, including MY BLM land that we can't get to anymore! MT is controlled by Big Ranchers, Cattlemens Assoc and Outfitters!! FW&P ain't got a chance!!

 

[ELKCHSR]

But Tom...

This topic is really about "Land locked property" and as is usual with those who don't agree with me, instead of just starting a new thread and sticking to a topic, they try making it personal and ignoring the main content of a thread...

And yes, there are major problems with your topic also...

Ever see the game Greenhorn gets, it's generally (by what he states) only on public ground...

 

[mtmiller]

Craig...

I wasn't rude to you or anyone else, I'm sorry if you took it personally, maybe you need to step back and take a breath...

Chill bud, it was just in humor. I will repeat though, you are wrong about your second sentence that I pointed out. Will you agree that you are wrong?

Supply and demand has nothing to do with how these rates are set. Where would you get such an idea?

 

[mtmiller]

I have to get to happy hour, but here is some info for you chsr.

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/newsroom/2009/january/NR_01_30_2009.html

Pretty intereting that the charge is the same as minimum allowable more that 30 years ago. No supply and demand in this interesting "formula".

 

[ELKCHSR]

Chill bud, it was just in humor.

That's good, a little defensive, but good, and humor wouldn't be where you were headed with this...

After you answer the question I posted first...

I'm not playing the games of the past where I'm constantly on defense trying to answer questions and none of mine are addressed, especially since this is getting way off topic...

Seems I went this route with a number of hunttalkers before, especially one we all know and I certainly wouldn't want anyone lumping you and him together on these types of debates...

What is it that would make any one of you guys who are 100% against cattle in these areas happy?

 

[mtmiller]

Come on, the two questions I asked you should be very easy to answer...you were wrong on both.

Did you ask me a specific question? I am not in the 100% against cattle group, so was there another question you asked me earlier?

 

[ELKCHSR]

I'm not going to debate semantics, but will answer your questions...

If you can be bothered to actually read them all the way thru...

I'll rephrase my question to you, since you're the only one who seems to be interested

What would you do to fix the problem of forests that require fire and large grazers (elk and deer don't eat enough to keep a balance) if not cattle?

The way it was maintained before White men came into the area had Bison doing the job cattle do now, one only replaced the other

Do you have any other alternatives that can be utilized in substitute of cattle?

Let's see if I can summarize your questions into a post that can be understood by every one...

Supply and Demand:

Factors that are said to determine price, by correlating the amount of a given commodity (public owned feed) producers (government controlled lands in this case) hope to sell at a certain price (supply), and the amount of that commodity (government controlled public lands) that consumers (rancher) are willing to purchase (demand)

You can't get more basic than this...

An example would be to go to Wal-Mart and buy jewelry

A gold necklace with some sort of shiny stone might cost $50

Now go to the jeweler in the mall, this same shiny dirt may run $120

Some could argue the quality is different, but we're not going there with this example

Wal-Mart feels their product is only worth $50 (same as government controlled land)

If someday you get into a place of power and can dictate the real value of the fuels our hay burners are eating, then things may change, until then I guess a buck and a little change is all it's worth

The producer (government controlled lands), could raise their product price (as the oil companies have been aggressively doing in the last few years), to see what the market will actually bare and still at least break even

Of course this has to be done in-between contracts...

What will happen (simple economics) Ranchers who can't afford higher prices will fall by the wayside and figure another way to keep their head above water or fail, ranchers with more backing will pick up these leases, or no one will...

Unless the governmental agency owning the land decides not to renew leases, then it goes fallow, creating huge amounts of AUM's that create huge and hot fires burning everything in its wake

Over the years after moving back to Montana, I've seen areas where I first started hunting, eaten down to the quick on the grasses and forbs because of too many cattle run on the land

Now I'm seeing better management in the areas I frequent, fewer cows (there are still cows), lots of plants that were hard to find, now coming back gang busters (Common Camas and wild onions for example)

Grasses and forbs are being eaten enough to slow fire progress when fires take place and the burns aren't as hot or fast (except where timber management still sucks and is another topic all together) and the environment is better served all the way around

I'm still curious what any of this has to do with "Land locked property"?

 

[mtmiller]

Man up......

 

[mtmiller]

Happy Hour over, now time to chase, I will play for a bit.

I am not against livestock on public land...I have never stated otherwise. We agree. Livestock can be a great tool.

Supply and Demand. Thanks for the definition.
Does is fit with what we are discussing? Absolutely not. Defend if you would like. BTW, your WalMart analogy on this topic is just stupid.

The producer (government controlled lands), could raise their product price (as the oil companies have been aggressively doing in the last few years), to see what the market will actually bare and still at least break even

Of course this has to be done in-between contracts...

Talking out of your ass again. Apparently you know nothing about how these things really work.

Your quote...er...something close. Ranchers fall off because they can't afford.

Pretty sure there are plenty of ranchers willing to pay twice as much for 1/2 dozen pair what it costs me to feed Axl every month for a better "monetary" return.

As for what this has to do with "Land Locked Property", not much; but you are just as much an instigator if not more. Unfortunatley I played into you game. This time you are outwitted on Federal Land issues.

 

[duckhead59]

Obviously from the posts on this it is an area of many opinions and a lot of emotion too. Rightfully so to an extent on both side...both have their reasoning...and both have some genuine substance to their arguments. A couple of points though.
1) It is PUBLIC land...and as such has been miered in bueracarcy like most govt agency run plans. It seems the lease price should be set at some multiple of fair market value of the cash rent price of surrounding land? But refer to 1st part of point 1 and there's your answer. When the govt is involved...rules of simple supply and demand do not work and result in artifical equilibrium. Farmers in the midwest pay unbelieviable cash rent rates for additional acerage...but it's determined by production values, surrounding land values and demand for the land...it works cuz it's private land.
2) The old wives tale about cows, horses, equipment etc being shot. Yeah...it's happened...not very often...but it's a tale that hangs on in the rural community as an easy out to explain no's. Around my farm in north Missouri...most of the vandalism, break ins (and I've endured my share), POACHING and stealing of equipment is done by locals! Not hunters, city folk or other farmers/ranchers...it's done by the same criminal element types as in the city, and in our area it's fueled by a huge problem with drugs and meth production...sad but true.
3) Remember, it costs a TON of money to farm/ranch these days...they are business people with HUGE amounts of money at risk and invested. So sure, they are going to take advantage of low cost alternatives...what business person wouldn't? And as a result they protect their investments and watch over what they can...as losses can be devistating. Think if someone you didn't know just stopped in and wanted to roam around your printing shop, warehouse, production area etc...and wanted to chase mice with axes?
4) Hunting clubs, outfitters, corps etc. This is a relatively new concept in my area...but catching on like a dry prairie fire. Again, it's an opportunity to make additional revenue for the farmar/rancher, (been to S Dakota on a pheasant hunt lately?) and releases them from worry of who's accessing and liability. The days of walking on, running a ditch etc without permission are about gone.
On the bright side, most land owners are pretty good people, just like most hunters are. Yeah, some bad ones on both sides...but stay away from both. Do a lot of off season scouting around the land owners instead of just the hunting areas. Talk with them off season, be genuine/humble, explain yourself, a bit about you. See if there are things you can do to benefit them...do they need preditors shot, prairie dogs thinned, does/anterless thinned, trash picked up on land, irrigation pipe moved, help w/fencing etc. It may take time, but stop in and see them, call to check in even if you've gotten no's. Build some trust and a relationship.
Something else I've found that really helps sometimes to ease the doubts. I carry a simple ring binder. It has pages in it that contain yes' from property owners. I keep a signed copy and the land owner gets one. It has my n, addy, phone #'s, truck license #, make of vehicle, outlines the area, scope of permission, any special restrictions, the fact that I carry insurance and will not hold land owner liable for ANYTHING and a start and stop date for permissions. It also has their n, # etc. When agreement is reached...we both sign and get copies. Another benefit is that yes becomes a center of influence you can show to other land owners in the area.
I hope this helps ease tempers and maybe gives some ideas on helping your cause.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Think what you want Craig, it's still no more injector and opinion then my statement as you haven't proven or stated anything...

As for what this has to do with "Land Locked Property", not much; but you are just as much an instigator if not more. Unfortunatley I played into you game. This time you are outwitted on Federal Land issues.

Sorry, I'm not playing a game, I haven't been for a few years now...

I just state my case and move on after the thread starts to degrade (which is getting obvious by your last post)...

You can and will read anything you want into my posts instead of taking it at face value, stating facts and moving on...

The big difference between us is that one of us doesn't understand how free market works...

If my analogies are wrong, educate me...

I'm a good student and will back down even admitting to and apologizing when I'm wrong...

Unlike most around here... Man up...... That's rich, you're a funny guy sometimes...

 

[mtmiller]

Question

What is it that would make any one of you guys who are 100% against cattle in these areas happy?

Once again, I have no problem with livestock grazing on public land as long as it is used as tool and does not adversely affect public lands.

chsr, did I answer you question? If I have not, please be specific to what your question was and don't make up a new one.


Will you answer mine?
1. If Federal grazing permit rates increased, would Federal Lands not be grazed? This is what you stated.

2. You speak of supply and demand and how the free market system works. My question to you, again, what is the correlation between Federal grazing rates and your free market grazing theory?

I do understand free market, but in this case it does not apply to grazing on Federal Land...at least 99% of Federal Land. I know of a permit in South Dakota that is bid on...it went for over $30 an AUM last year.

Reminder, these questions did not come out of thin air. You stated both of these and I just called you on them.

I will stick with my "man up" comment.

 

[Oak]

Things are apparently much different in eastern Colorado than they are in the western half of the state. The problem of elk being pushed to private lands by hunters on public lands is a long-standing issue that has influenced many CDOW management decisions in recent years. It is the reason that units comprising the Bear's Ears herd and White River herd have gone to limited archery tags in otherwise unlimited units. It is also the reason for the increased issuance of private-land-only tags. Out here, the outfitters and ranchers are not hunting the public lands. They are sitting on their own lands waiting for the huge influx of elk on opening day.

Your point about deer grazing in town, adjacent to areas of heavy hunting pressure, is an excellent example of the point I am trying to make. Deer and elk are like the wind. They are going to move from high pressure areas to low pressure areas. They may become accustomed to a rancher doing everyday chores, or the occasional vehicle or ATV on the forest in the summer. But when vehicle traffic increases 500%, folks are setting up camps, checking their rifle zeros, cruising every road and trail in the name of "scouting", and stopping to gawk at every doe standing in a quakie patch along the road, they know what's up. That's not normal, and they know it.

I'm not really interested in what reasons the USFS gives for closing roads. It is beneficial to hunters, and as long as they are on board with the idea, we are better off.

The attached (terrible) photo was taken on opening afternoon of the first rifle season on private property in northwestern Colorado. That hillside is about 2 miles from the NF boundary, and about 1 mile from huntable public ground. The evening before the opener there were about a half dozen elk on that hillside. It is a popular gathering place for elk pushed off of the forest, and the herd often grows to 600 or more. You can go watch it happen yourself every year.

First addressing the roads versus the animals. Out here and that includes hunting from Colorado, through Wyoming and up into the Idaho, Oregon and Washington areas I've noticed that animals pay little attention to the person on the ATV or Tractor as those are exactly what many if not most ranchers, foresters, and range managers,are using these days to work on their ranches and forests/range. Let those animals find you walking though and it's a far different story as they may just leave the country. As for pushing the animals on to the private ranches, that's is just the opposite of what I've encountered over the years I've hunted. I have seen Outfitter/Ranchers hunt the adjacent public lands first and then move back to their private ranch land after their clients have shot the better ones off of the adjacent National Forest. A note also is that the roads weren't closed by the USFS because of the animals but in most cases, according to them, due to budget restraints, enviro pressure and politics. By the way the herd of Mulies here graze in town throughout the winter months and are hunted on adjacent lands during hunting season., same as on the USAF Academy and other such areas. Like all animals deer and elk are very adaptive to any environment that allows them food, bedding, breeding and fawning areas. On this note have you caught the new TV show about hunting in town?

Chuck S

 

[ELKCHSR]

Auctions are the epitome of free market

This is where a product goes for the most it can go for or the most the open market place is willing to pay for whatever it is for sale

So...

A buck and some change per head is all the area must be worth...

Or...

There would be higher bids (unless there are people in the background stifling larger bids as took place during the depression when whole farms and ranches were auctioned off)...

I don't understand what part of this you're not getting, unless this is just another baiting because you're lack in detail in your posts, then it's all clear...

I also don't really understand your "Man up" comment...

Man up for what?

I think I've proven over the years I can keep up with most any one here or at least hold my own, which is good enough in my book...

 

[Oak]

No offense, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that you are not familiar with how the federal grazing program works. I think mtmiller could teach you something if you were willing to listen.

Auctions are the epitome of free market

This is where a product goes for the most it can go for or the most the open market place is willing to pay for whatever it is for sale

So...

A buck and some change per head is all the area must be worth...

Or...

There would be higher bids (unless there are people in the background stifling larger bids as took place during the depression when whole farms and ranches were auctioned off)...

I don't understand what part of this you're not getting, unless this is just another baiting because you're lack in detail in your posts, then it's all clear...

I also don't really understand your "Man up" comment...

Man up for what?

I think I've proven over the years I can keep up with most any one here or at least hold my own, which is good enough in my book...

 

[mtmiller]

Auctions are the epitome of free market

This is where a product goes for the most it can go for or the most the open market place is willing to pay for whatever it is for sale

So...

A buck and some change per head is all the area must be worth...

Or...

There would be higher bids (unless there are people in the background stifling larger bids as took place during the depression when whole farms and ranches were auctioned off)...

I don't understand what part of this you're not getting, unless this is just another baiting because you're lack in detail in your posts, then it's all clear...

I also don't really understand your "Man up" comment...

Man up for what?

I think I've proven over the years I can keep up with most any one here or at least hold my own, which is good enough in my book...

Hey Gump, could you tell me more about these auctioned Federal grazing permits?

As for my "man up" comment, I am asking you to answer the two simple questions I posted. Pretty sure it is already apparent to everyone, but I would like you to "man up" and confess that you didn't know what you were talking about.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Why is it that mtmiller, Layin it Down and Oak never bash on ranchers when it comes to this subject? I think I know why, by lookig at the photos that they have posted in the past, they don't need to try to gain access to that ground as they are fully capable of going where there is gainable access or even right where other people have gone and they still do great. Jose, maybe you should take some lessons from them instead of throwing your "Welfare Rancher" flag all of the time.

Again, we don't run any of our cows on public ground, but I have plenty of friends that do and they have to put up with this nonsense all of the time. They shouldn't have to allow access through their private ground to any one. Unless you hold their hand all of the way through the private, most of them will not be able to control themselves and something will get whacked, plain and simple. I doubt anyone on here would do that, but it happens all of the time. You need to put yourselves in the ranchers shoes sometimes and see it from his perspective. There is a reason why the land-locked public is good, and it is because maybe the rancher has developed some water and ran some pipelines, or maybe he has controled his grazing, or just maybe that old "Welfare Rancher" (you liked that didn't you Jose you whiney little bitch) took care of that game during the winter months and controled the hunting pressure on it to help it thrive.

Sorry to see more examples of your ignorance Big Shooter. We have ran cattle for 4 generations on deeded land, we don't support the Communism/Socialism you do where you have government resources being allocated to production of food/commodities. I guess you don't support Free Enterprise and the American Way.

You prove yourself not to be a capitalist/free enterprise supporter where you feel sorry for your COMPETITORS who get to feed their cattle for $1.35 while you pay significantly more for deeded pastures.

No way I will ever support Welfare Ranching on My Public Lands, nor, will I support government programs that enable/support my competitors.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Auctions are the epitome of free market

This is where a product goes for the most it can go for or the most the open market place is willing to pay for whatever it is for sale

.

Just where the hell do they hold The Cheese' Imaginary Auctions??? (Impressive that The Cheese used a fancy thesaurus to find the word "epitome", but that is besides the point.)

For The Cheese to now be making up fictional non-existent auctions shows how ignorant he actually is. I am guessing he will now argue that "read into his comments only what we want to" line of BS....

The Cheese has been skool'd here, and now he will take his tail (or "tale") between his legs and go home....

 

[MNHunter]

I believe it is your move ELKCHSR....