Killing Female Lions

[Bear Creek Adventures]

Buzz, I have treed a few lion and have never had dogs kill kittens or hurt any lion for that matter. I am sure it has happened, but not very often. I have had females and cubs tree in the same tree though. MD4M, you are right, this IS A HOT TOPIC! There are as many opinions as there are hunters. The unfortunate thing is that lions are just not understood and there is not much data on them. As you mentioned, not even G&F Depts. know how many lions they have. I have talked to many people in my area that never guessed there are lions in the area! Because they are seldom seen, people don't think they are there. Then you hear the ones that see a lion behind every bush. Usually that is bull. If you are seeing lions, that means there are way too many of them around.

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"The worst advice you can give a person with a sour attitude is to be himself"
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[bcat]

BCA-You are right about that. Do you have people calling ya all the time telling you aBOUT LION TRACKS THEY HAVE FOUND OR LIONS THEY HAVE SEEN AND GO LOOK WHERE THEY TOLD YA AND FIND A COTOTE track or a bear track?? I know lions are spotted now and then, but very seldom. I would venture to say that 90 perxent of lion sightings are BOGUS sightings. BUZZ- Yes I believe from what I have learned about lions that killing toms helps lion populations, because of the kitten mortality from male lions eating the kittens so the female will come back in heat. When there is NO males in the country tho the females dont get bred. Areas where they have unlimited harvests for males and females, usually the females get killed in bigger numbers than the males, then finally most of the males are killed and then it takes YEARS to regain a healthy lion population.bcat

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If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

Boykin's Hunting Homepage
HuntAndLodge.com
www.recworld.com/boykin

 

[The Hedgehog]

My opinion...

Killing female lions is a great way to quickly reduce lion populations. Now in places where lion numbers are low, there should be some strict quotas on female takes. But in places where lion numbers are high (and resulting mule deer numbers WAY down) I think that ONLY female lions should be killed. In my opinion it depends on the area and the overall goal of the wildlife management.

A large local ranch here used to be famous for it's tremendous mule deer hunting, taking over a dozen true trophy mule deer a year, and regularly getting deer that would score over 200. One that went 254 gross n.t. In the last 5 years, only a couple mule deer have been killed on this ranch, with numbers WAY down on 120000 acre spread. Anyway in 99 a big push to cull coyotes and allow public houndsmen access to kill only female cats has made some real good changes in the deer situation.

 

[bcat]

Greenhorn-In an area like you speak of it doesnt make sense to kill ONLY the female lions!!! Both sexes should be killed to balance out the management plan!!! The only thing lacking here in Wyoming is a CLEAR MANAGEMENT PLAN!!!!! Ya go to the meetings, and JOE public is there and one of his neighbors saw a lion track last year and so there are too many lions!!!!! They dont even know what a lion track looks like, most of them, but they think we are overrun with lions. They are out in the woods for two weeks hunting, and they think they know whats going on. The game wardens rarely make it past the 7-11 parking lot and they dont have a clue either!!!! NOT ALL OF THEM, but a good share of em!!!!!! When ya dont see mud and dirt on a wardens pickup EVER, he hasnt been to the field much!!!!! I very rarely see one in the field and I know they have alot of ground to cover, but its getting rediculous. We have a good warden here, but I know lots of places that it is pretty lax!!! This is their management plan, and where it comes from!!! bcat IN MY OPINION!!!!

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If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

Boykin's Hunting Homepage
HuntAndLodge.com
www.recworld.com/boykin

 

[The Hedgehog]

bcat, Contrary to your opinion, what was done on this ranch is working. No question about it. I will say that our local biologist and wardens (and some of the local ranches that work with them) are very good and worth thier weight in gold. Previously, no lions were being taken on this ranch. Now, only females. And as a result, deer numbers are exploding after rock bottom situation. And there are still plenty of cats, evidence of what a typical cat kill in this place looks like. I found this last weekend and though I may be a Joe Public to you, I know a cat track when I see one.

[This message has been edited by Greenhorn (edited 02-25-2001).]

 

[cathunt-mt]

I am from Billings, MT add I think I would have to agree with bcat anyone that hunts over my dogs will never shoot a female. Also I have hunted here my hole life and I have never seen a cat when hunting for deer,elk,bear or anything else. Like bcat said it would only take a copal of times finding starving kittens to make you feel the same way. And I don't think the bis. side of bcats argument has as much to do with it as the future hunter being able to hunt them like we do. I know my kid is looking forward to hunting, so I would not do something like kill a female and jeopardies that for my kids. Think about it!!!!!

Cathunt

 

[bcat]

Greenhorn-I wasnt calling you JOE B. PUBLIC!!!! So you are telling me everybody around is the woodsman that you are knows it all about lions!!! I call BS!!!!! You may get out more than anyone in your town if ya wanted to be honest about it, except maybe the lion hunters!!! If you want to be lumped in with JOE PUBLIC so be it!! We can lump ya right in there! I can tell ya the Biologist here didnt even know that lions killed elk!!!!! They actually PREFER elk to deer here where I live. If ya want to find a lion, just find where the elk were about two days before and about ten miles back and you'll find a lion!!!!!! The killing of female lions in areas where they are just over run with them I suppose would have to be the call of the wardens in the area, but from the dirt I see on their vehicles here they wouldnt know how to make that decision and make it with any kind of real judgement. Same goes with Joe Q.Public!!!!!!! If ya arent out there amoung the wintering herds ya dont know what the hell youre talking about. ANybody can fill out a questionaire at a game meeting!!!! bcat

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If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

Boykin's Hunting Homepage
HuntAndLodge.com
www.recworld.com/boykin

 

[Duster]

I think some very good information has been brought about by this post. I think both Greenhorn and Bcat know what they are speaking about. If I had a big ranch, I don't by the way, and I knew the deer and elk were being taken by leaps and bounds due to the mountain lion population, yes I would start hunting female lions also, until the figures got back in order. If it is a given sector in a state, then yes the state should open up and let females be taken until things get back to a pre measured number again.

 

[Duster]

I think some very good information has been brought about by this post. I think both Greenhorn and Bcat know what they are speaking about. If I had a big ranch, I don't by the way, and I knew the deer and elk were being taken by leaps and bounds due to the mountain lion population, yes I would start hunting female lions also, until the figures got back in order. If it is a given sector in a state, then yes the state should open up and let females be taken until things get back to a pre measured number again.

 

[Buckshot]

bcat,

I read over this thread a couple days ago and made no response, but a few of the things you said have been eating at me a little so I guess I'm going to jump in....

You mentioned several times all the starving kittens you've found. Just curious, could you put a number on that? In quite a few years of lion hunting I've never come across one and I don't personally know of anyone else that has either. I don't doubt that you've ever seen it, just wonder if you implied that it happens more frequently than it actually does in order to make your point. And of the ones you did come across, do you reckon they may have been orphaned by an incidental kill without hounds or an accident of nature? A lactating female is fairly easy to identify and as you mentioned the kittens spend most of their time with the female after 8 weeks so I feel strongly that houndsman are unlikely to orphan kittens.

There will always be some inadvertent kitten mortality when hunting with hounds when they catch them on the ground. You illustrated what can happen quite clearly with your photograph. Kittens still in a den tend to stay there rather than climbing a tree. I think that your photo is much more a comment on the lack of grit in the 5 dogs involved than in the fighting abilities of a 15 pound kitten. Thank goodness it doesn't happen often but it does happen.

You commented that in areas with no harvest restrictions that the females will be killed in bigger numbers than the males and will ultimately result in the decimation of the lion population (something to that effect anyway). Here in northern Idaho we have just such a season, 4 months of hound-hunting with no restrictions. The long-term result of that is quite different than what you suggest. Due to selectivity among many hunters, significantly more males are killed every year and our population remains relatively stable. Within my own business we take predominantly males, but we take females every year as well and I feel no need to apologize for that given the stable population we have. That's gotta be some pretty fancy math you used to come up with 80 progeny from a single female killed. I'd be interested in seeing that broken down.

Although I'm no longer a "week-end warrior" I took exception to your comments regarding them. The week-end warriors are the guys that spend all the money and time necessary to acquire and keep a good pack of lion dogs purely for the thrill of it. It requires a great deal of perseverance to stick with it, and I think they deserve a lot more credit. You and I do all the same work but with the promise of financial compensation. I know that I, and probably you, would keep dogs and continue to lion hunt even if it wasn't part of our living, but the fact remains that these guys are dedicated. There are certainly some bad apples among them (what group doesn't have them) but in my experience those guys are far more selective than your average outfitter. Many of them will go years, or decades, without killing a lion although they may tree a bunch every season.

The last thing that had me scratching my head was your comment that you've never killed a female bobcat. I could think of a couple explanations: 1) you haven't killed any bobcats, or 2) you don't actually know what you're looking for under the tail in order to sex 'em. If, on the other hand, you're telling me that you can sex every bobcat in the tree before you ground-check it I'm mighty impressed. If your bobcats are anything like the bobcats I've hunted you're lucky just to be able to see a little piece of bobcat hide in the tree about half the time. You should really be putting your Super Man vision to some better use than outfitting.....

These are just my observations. I felt that you painted the picture with a little too broad a brush a few times.

Respectfully,

Clint Gray
http://www.angelfire.com/id/buckhunting

 

[The Hedgehog]

Clint,

Hey there dude. Remember me from college? How the hell are you? Remember that crappy day of elk hunting in the Gallatin with me?

Often wondered where you guys ended up. Idaho? Outfitting? Fantastic.

I'll send you an email when I get some time.

 

[GatoMan]

I agree with ya buckshot on your points your not the only one thats been reading the posts and scratching there head.....You go over on the oregon coast and run bobs over there you need a pair of binoculars to search the trees with, sometimes only thing you might spots is a ear, 5 dogs bayed a 15 pd kitten for an hour....I call BS or thats some sorry dogs, wonder if they would catch a bear...lol, I have seen the type though, ones that go down and bugger bark at a berry patch were bear had left 2 hours ago....lol,

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GatoMan

 

[CATMAN]

I'd have to agree with buckshot and Gatoman. I can't believe anyone can sex every bobcat before its grounded. Your trees must be short and thin. I also guide and on occasion our hunters kill a female. And like buckshot I'm not going to appoligize for it happening. We have a good lion population where we hunt, and I to have never seen orphaned kittens. I am not saying that it doesn't happen, but I spend a lot of hunting time and never have seen it. I am sure glad that my hounds weren't bayed up on that kitten you have in your picture because the outcome surely wouldn't have been the same. Just an opinion.

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CATMAN

 

[Muledeer4me]

Welcome Buckshot,I see that this topic is ever bit as hot as the fish and game guy I talked to told me it was. Very good info. on here.Anyway I did want to welcome you to moosies.If you have any pictures please put them up ,we all love to see more.

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Debbie

 

[Buckshot]

Kurt,
Wow! Small world, eh? Please find some time and drop me an e-mail. I'd sure like to hear what you're up to.

Muledeer4me,
Thanks for the welcome. I tried posting a couple of pictures on the "More cat pics" thread for you. I got one up but photopoint locked up on me when I tried to do the other one. I'll keep after it though and get it posted soon.



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Clint Gray
Buckshot Outfitting
http://www.angelfire.com/id/buckhunting

 

[Bear Creek Adventures]

Buckshot,

Great to have on here! We need more houndsmen! Post some pictures of your dogs and lions. I checked out your web site and it looks like you have been very successful with your hunts, very nice pics. You don't really eat the lion's heart do you???? lol

Good points above, glad you are here.

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"The worst advice you can give a person with a sour attitude is to be himself"
[email protected]

 

[sheCat]

Hmmmm.... calling someones dogs worthless and having lack of grit, when you weren't there and didn't see the whole situation is pretty presumtious isn't it? Or just maybe someone could say about your dogs, also never having seen them work, that you have no control over them? Same difference. sheCat

 

[bcat]

Bigshot-I have never killed a female bobcat in my life. I have killed many bobcats, and have let ten times that many go. I dont feel the need to kill everything my dogs tree. As far as the kittens going with the female after 8 weeks of age I call BS again. They seldom travel with the female till they are 4 or 5 months old. SOmetimes ya see theor tracks with them when she is taking them to a kill, or moving them, but rarely. I have seen six sets (NOT SIX KITTENS) six sets of kittens starving since I have started hunting lions. THat doesnt count the ones the University of Wyoming found from females that were collared that got killed by hunters. THey retrieved several of these orphaned kittens. If you have never seen a starving kitten, you havent spent much time lion hunting with your worthless dogs. At least I have the decency to honor the law and not shoot lions in the dark with the aid of a flashlight. You forget, some people have been there and done that. I know the difference between a flashlightand a flash from the camera. We have turned several lions loose after getting to the tree in the dark. We have shined em and taken pictures and we have took pictures with a flash. You can fool some people some of the time, all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you aint folling me. Hope they bust your arse for it too!!!! bcat

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If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

Boykin's Hunting Homepage
HuntAndLodge.com
www.recworld.com/boykin

 

[Buckshot]

sheCat,

I didn't state or infer that bcat's dogs were worthless. I did say that based on the photo and bcat's story, they appeared to lack grit, but in my opinion that's unrelated to worth in a cat dog. In fact, I'd say a case could be made that a lack of grit may be a good quality in a hound used only on cats. Aggressiveness isn't required to put a cat in the tree, and it just might get a dog killed where a less gritty (some might say smart) dog would live to tree more cats for you. Furthermore, in a situation with kittens on the ground, a less gritty dog would be less likely to kill or injure them. The point I was trying to make was that many houndsman have grittier dogs that would have resulted in a much worse ending to bcat's story. If you'd like to see a clear-cut case of someone presumptuously calling another person's dogs worthless without any knowledge of them, you need look no further than bcat's post right below yours.


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Clint Gray
Buckshot Outfitting
http://www.angelfire.com/id/buckhunting

 

[sheCat]

Buckshot,
Thank you for your definition of what you think a gritty dog is. I didn't read your post to say it that way to begin with at all. To me aggressive and gritty pretty much mean the same thing. Just to clear things up a little, In this case it wasn't from lack of trying to get to the kitten, it was from lack of footing on the straight rocks. Straight down about 15 feet straight up about twenty and no foot holds at all, there was a tiny ledge that we took the picture from and one of our dogs had found that just as we came up, 5 minutes longer and our less gritty dog would have had him a kitten, and that same dog was killed by a lion two years later. I am pretty proud of our dogs as I am sure you are of yours, so when you say less agressive and less gritty from my dictionary, I took it as a challenge.
sheCat