Impressed with monolithic bullet

[TheJason]

What kills animal is the transfer of stored energy in the bullet into the soft tissue of the thing you want to kill, and to a lesser extent penetrative wounding. The energy is transferred through the process of deformation of the bullet. If this weren't the case we would all shoot FMJ.

Actually permanent and temporary wound channels are what kill due to sudden blood loss or disruption of the CNS.

Many things affect wound channels. FMJ bullets make a very long permanent wound channel, with very little temporary wound channel and tissue disruption. A hollow point will create a large diameter wound channel that is not very long. It may or may not be effective.

People get hung up on energy transfer. A fast moving HP will transfer a lot of energy, but like won’t create an adequate wound channel for hunting purposes.

Bullets moving under 2000 fps don’t create much of a temporary wound channel. The temporary wound channel is from the high velocity projectile moving through tissue and causing tissue damage, which in turn causes either additional hemorrhage or CNS disruption.

 

[Walkathon]

I've found parts of the jacket and pieces of lead in the deer I've butchered after shooting them with traditional cup/lead core bullets. I also found part of a TTSX petal stuck in the hide of a deer I shot with it. Wasn't in the meat, but could have ended up there I suppose. I think there is some danger of finding part of the projectile in your meat no matter what you use. Not a fun situation for sure. The worst jacket fragmentation I've had is with the SST. Deer and Antelope died really quickly, but the meat damage was significant. The least jacket fragmentation I've found using cup/core bullets was with the Accubond. The Interlock bullets are somewhere in between the Accubond and SST. All of the above mentioned bullets resulted in clean kills and not much for tracking after the shot.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Actually permanent and temporary wound channels are what kill due to sudden blood loss or disruption of the CNS.

Many things affect wound channels. FMJ bullets make a very long permanent wound channel, with very little temporary wound channel and tissue disruption. A hollow point will create a large diameter wound channel that is not very long. It may or may not be effective.

People get hung up on energy transfer. A fast moving HP will transfer a lot of energy, but like won’t create an adequate wound channel for hunting purposes.

Bullets moving under 2000 fps don’t create much of a temporary wound channel. The temporary wound channel is from the high velocity projectile moving through tissue and causing tissue damage, which in turn causes either additional hemorrhage or CNS disruption.

I agree with everything you said. I think we are thinking the same thing. Had I been more explicit I think we would have been on the same page. The release of stored energy is what creates the temporary wound channel. The carrying of stored energy is what drives penetration. In my mind, if you could strike the balance of a bullet dumping all the energy it can into the temp wound channel, and retain just enough energy to pop out the other side it would be perfect.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

I've found parts of the jacket and pieces of lead in the deer I've butchered after shooting them with traditional cup/lead core bullets. I also found part of a TTSX petal stuck in the hide of a deer I shot with it. Wasn't in the meat, but could have ended up there I suppose. I think there is some danger of finding part of the projectile in your meat no matter what you use. Not a fun situation for sure. The worst jacket fragmentation I've had is with the SST. Deer and Antelope died really quickly, but the meat damage was significant. The least jacket fragmentation I've found using cup/core bullets was with the Accubond. The Interlock bullets are somewhere in between the Accubond and SST. All of the above mentioned bullets resulted in clean kills and not much for tracking after the shot.

Google "deer lead x-ray" I would take a copper petal or two over 100s of fragments of lead. I am not sure about the toxicity to humans, but it certainly creates a lot more bloodshot meat....

 

[MTLabrador]

Actually permanent and temporary wound channels are what kill due to sudden blood loss or disruption of the CNS.

Many things affect wound channels. FMJ bullets make a very long permanent wound channel, with very little temporary wound channel and tissue disruption. A hollow point will create a large diameter wound channel that is not very long. It may or may not be effective.

People get hung up on energy transfer. A fast moving HP will transfer a lot of energy, but like won’t create an adequate wound channel for hunting purposes.

Bullets moving under 2000 fps don’t create much of a temporary wound channel. The temporary wound channel is from the high velocity projectile moving through tissue and causing tissue damage, which in turn causes either additional hemorrhage or CNS disruption.

But what about Thump Factor?

My .300 Win Mag load is 3200 FPS. Should I be concerned about short range performance?

 

[Walkathon]

Google "deer lead x-ray" I would take a copper petal or two over 100s of fragments of lead. I am not sure about the toxicity to humans, but it certainly creates a lot more bloodshot meat....

Yes, I've seen the picture. Lots of fragments in the deer for sure. Completely agree on the statement about being less worried about a petal.

 

[TheJason]

But what about Thump Factor?

My .300 Win Mag load is 3200 FPS. Should I be concerned about short range performance?

The thump factor comes into play when you hit’em in the guts and it sounds like thumping a watermelon.

 

[ImBillT]

I wish I would have taken a picture of it, but alas I was just mad in the moment and threw it away. I know the unlikelihood of breaking a tooth on a lead fragment, but it's what happened and that's a reason I switched to bullets that I know hold their mass together, like GMX and TTSX. Hornady just released their CX in place of the GMX so I'm sure I'll use that too.

When I went to the dentist to get it fixed I actually got it ground down to put a porcelain crown on it and the whole base was healthy, so I know the tooth wasn't just rotten or anything. It must have been a freak accident as it's never happened to anyone that I personally know.

I processed that deer in my hunting partner's kitchen the day after I shot it, so I know what all I packaged up and I can tell you for sure that I didn't see any trails from the fragment, but a whole shoulder was almost thrown away from damage. The FTX I was using hit bone and fractured a bunch. I still got a pass through though, so I don't knock the performance of the bullet.

I’m struggling with lead breaking a healthy tooth, but at this point I’m just gonna have to take your word for it.

Like I said earlier, I have a few times found a bullet fragment in meat with no apparent damage that I would have trimmed around so it’s certainly something that happens, but it’s still a good reason to process your own and be carful. My guess would be that meat from commercial processors has a lot more bullets fragments than people who CAREFULLY process their own game. I’m not saying it can be done perfectly(and not saying you did a poor job) I’m just saying that’s another great reason to process your own.

Hammers are designed to have petals break off. Bone fragments are going to happen regardless of what bullet you use, and they are a lot harder than lead or copper. Whether you somehow managed to break a seemingly perfect tooth on a lead fragment or not, I will never see the avoidance of potential tooth damage as a good reason to switch from lead core bullets to monos. There are plenty of good reasons, but I just don’t see that as one of them.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I need a couple advil after reading this thread.

 

[noharleyyet]

 

[cahunter805]

Actually permanent and temporary wound channels are what kill due to sudden blood loss or disruption of the CNS.

Many things affect wound channels. FMJ bullets make a very long permanent wound channel, with very little temporary wound channel and tissue disruption. A hollow point will create a large diameter wound channel that is not very long. It may or may not be effective.

People get hung up on energy transfer. A fast moving HP will transfer a lot of energy, but like won’t create an adequate wound channel for hunting purposes.

Bullets moving under 2000 fps don’t create much of a temporary wound channel. The temporary wound channel is from the high velocity projectile moving through tissue and causing tissue damage, which in turn causes either additional hemorrhage or CNS disruption.

+1000! At least nobody has started talking about “knockdown” power yet!

 

[cahunter805]

I agree with everything you said. I think we are thinking the same thing. Had I been more explicit I think we would have been on the same page. The release of stored energy is what creates the temporary wound channel. The carrying of stored energy is what drives penetration. In my mind, if you could strike the balance of a bullet dumping all the energy it can into the temp wound channel, and retain just enough energy to pop out the other side it would be perfect.

There are quite a few bullets that behave like you just described. A few being Berger/TMK/ Scenar/ hammer bullets.

 

[MThuntr]

All I know is I have bullets that made it through both shoulders of a moose (one through the lower joint of the scapula) to continue into the lungs and through the offside shoulder and stuck in the hide. I'm certain a tough bullet like the partition or accubond would have done similar though less weight retention. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of berger bullets and in my mind they likely would have failed to do what the hammers did while making a bigger mess. Impact velocity would have been around 2850 (give or take)

FWIW the area around the bone shatter was actually in good shape and only meat lost was immediately around the bone which would have happened regardless of bullet choice just likely less than if it were a standard cup and core bullet

 

[smarandr]

For your consideration: https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/is-the-copper-bullet-debate-finally-settled

 

[nhenry]

I’m struggling with lead breaking a healthy tooth, but at this point I’m just gonna have to take your word for it.

Like I said earlier, I have a few times found a bullet fragment in meat with no apparent damage that I would have trimmed around so it’s certainly something that happens, but it’s still a good reason to process your own and be carful. My guess would be that meat from commercial processors has a lot more bullets fragments than people who CAREFULLY process their own game. I’m not saying it can be done perfectly(and not saying you did a poor job) I’m just saying that’s another great reason to process your own.

Hammers are designed to have petals break off. Bone fragments are going to happen regardless of what bullet you use, and they are a lot harder than lead or copper. Whether you somehow managed to break a seemingly perfect tooth on a lead fragment or not, I will never see the avoidance of potential tooth damage as a good reason to switch from lead core bullets to monos. There are plenty of good reasons, but I just don’t see that as one of them.

That was just one of the reasons, but it was the reason that started my transition. It made me realize that I didn't like having meat tainted by lead and as my children grow up, I don't want them eating lead either. That's my biggest reason, but there are others, as well. Another big one is that I like how little meat damage there typically is with monos.

I've never used Hammers on game, but I might get to them this year since I've done some load development with them the last few months. Although they do lose petals, I figure that 4 larger petals is better than hundreds of pieces of fragmented lead.

 

[mtmuley]

I need a couple advil after reading this thread.

I just point my gun at stuff and kill it. mtmuley

 

[Sagebrush1]

I apologize for starting this thread…

 

[OntarioHunter]

I apologize for starting this thread…

No apology needed. Ignore the juveniles playing with video clips and thesaurus. There seems to be some thoughtful dialog on the subject ... once you wade past the usual childish internet trolls.

 

[s3silver]

I've been using the ttsx in 6.5 for the last two seasons and have been pretty impressed not to mention I HAVE to use them due to regulations here. This year I changed to Cavity Back MKZT's but haven't gotten a chance to put them through any game yet. They are supposed to have a lower expansion threshold than the Barnes.

 

[std7mag]

I recently received some 25 caliber, 90gr Absolute Hammers to try in my 250 Savage.

I've shot the 130gr, 7mm MTH line from Cutting Edge with good accuracy, but never had the chance to take game with them.

Someone mentioned about shooting lighter for caliber mono's to keep the velocity up.
This is only a small part of the light for caliber reason.
The major reason is that for a given weight, mono's are longer than cup & core bullets.
Often necessitating a faster twist barrel to stabilize them.
I can shoot 120gr lead bullets with my industry standard 1:10 twist 25 cal rifles.
Heaviest mono to stabilize in same barrel is 90gr.

My favorite bullets for game thus far are the Nosler Ballistic Tip & Berger VLD.
In 40 years of hunting i have never had a deer go more than 25 yards with either bullet.

Were i to have to use a mono to hunt, my choice would be either Hammer, or Cutting Edge.
And those 2 because they are designed to shed their petals.

I've helped a few friends shooting Barnes on rather long tracking jobs on deer that should have gone down closer to the impact area.