If you hunt elk in MT, look here!

[houndy65]

What makes sense is that I live right next to Lost trail; we have lost half the the herd. There will be no youth cow elk hunting next year because of the numbers. Your saying that even if every wolf was dead the herd won't rebound because HB42 won't let is wrong to say. I'll bet 3/4 of the calves born this year are gone before fall. I'm out there more than most people 9 all winter and spring lion hunting) and have been seeing the elk numbers declining year after year. Those numbers that I filmed in 2001 were the objectives and they have been going down year after year, The elk aren't going to last, try eating wolf. Just because you read objectives doen't mean there isn't a smoke screen sent down from the top, its all about the dollar. When we get into 2013 things are going to turned up side down when it comes the FWP. Just a side note this just isn't my opinion.

 

[174in]

Interesting read. IMO the biggest problem is cow tags.Eliminate all cow tags for a minimum 2 year period and I think you would see the elk heard increase.I dont know a thing about elk and I am no biologest so again its only my opinion feel free to corect me if I am wrong.In my home state I have seen our deer heard decrease alot in the last 10 years. Use to see 40 plus deer on the opener now you are lucky to see more than 2. Why? Earn a buck! It put a hurt on our herd here.Yes there are pockets of deer just like you elk herds and those are the animals the DNR counts.Add wolves,bad winters and bears to the mix with shooting alot of female animials and you will have a low herd number.

 

[174in]

I look at it this way.Why does a farmer have so many cows to 1 bull.

 

[shoots-straight]

What makes sense is that I live right next to Lost trail; we have lost half the the herd. There will be no youth cow elk hunting next year because of the numbers. Your saying that even if every wolf was dead the herd won't rebound because HB42 won't let is wrong to say. I'll bet 3/4 of the calves born this year are gone before fall. I'm out there more than most people 9 all winter and spring lion hunting) and have been seeing the elk numbers declining year after year. Those numbers that I filmed in 2001 were the objectives and they have been going down year after year, The elk aren't going to last, try eating wolf. Just because you read objectives doen't mean there isn't a smoke screen sent down from the top, its all about the dollar. When we get into 2013 things are going to turned up side down when it comes the FWP. Just a side note this just isn't my opinion.

Your thoughts are so stuck on wolves, it's hard to converse with you. I'll make it simple for you. There's a certain number of elk that are there now. Ok got it. What ever elk there is, that is the max for that area. The Dept has met the objectives numbers that are in the EMP. If there's were no wolves, and you grew 50 calves per 100 cows ther, You would have to kill that number you grow just to keep the objective for the area. What ever elk you raise, have to be killed one way or the other.

Hunters rarely if ever take responsibility for low elk numbers.

 

[shoots-straight]

Interesting read. IMO the biggest problem is cow tags.Eliminate all cow tags for a minimum 2 year period and I think you would see the elk heard increase.I dont know a thing about elk and I am no biologest so again its only my opinion feel free to corect me if I am wrong.In my home state I have seen our deer heard decrease alot in the last 10 years. Use to see 40 plus deer on the opener now you are lucky to see more than 2. Why? Earn a buck! It put a hurt on our herd here.Yes there are pockets of deer just like you elk herds and those are the animals the DNR counts.Add wolves,bad winters and bears to the mix with shooting alot of female animials and you will have a low herd number.

It's hard for you guys to grasp the real problem. It's not the numbers of elk killed, it's the "PLAN" forces those elk to be killed. We can't grow elk because the plan won't allow it. Very few areas actually need to grow elk. In those areas if we did increase the numbers, we would end up right back here again. The plan is flawed.

 

[houndy65]

There are 150 elk here right now, there were 300-350 in 2001, 150 isn't the max. We had 300 to 350, and the wolves have knocked the elk herd down to 150, thats simple math. Your right I'm stuck on the wolves and I'm not hard converse with, your simplily telling i'm wrong and i'm simplily telling you are wrong. I do understand The FWP objectives, but they wrong. I know for a fact that up here we worked really hard to get the herd that we had back around say 1995 to say 2000. The only way we suceeded in getting the elk numbers we had up here were by shutting down either sex elk during the general season, then came the wolves. Jim williams objctives then were having a herd of 3 or 4 hundred elk around the the lost trail refuge. The wolves have steadily decreased the numbers. We would have the herd of 3 or 4 hundred if the wolves weren't there, thats my point.

 

[MTbowhunter84]

Thank you SS!

 

[Big Fin]

Interesting read. IMO the biggest problem is cow tags.Eliminate all cow tags for a minimum 2 year period and I think you would see the elk heard increase.

Ahhh, but that is too logical for Montana wildlife politics. You are exactly correct in your solution.

We would love to do that, 174. But, for all those units at or above objective, it would be in violation of Montana law.

I guess that makes the law illogical, which is probably why it passed.

 

[MTbowhunter84]

Houndy no one is saying you are wrong about the wolves. They are just stating there is a bigger picture we need to look at.

 

[Big Fin]

There are 150 elk here right now, there were 300-350 in 2001, 150 isn't the max. We had 300 to 350, and the wolves have knocked the elk herd down to 150, thats simple math. Your right I'm stuck on the wolves and I'm not hard converse with, your simplily telling i'm wrong and i'm simplily telling you are wrong. I do understand The FWP objectives, but they wrong. I know for a fact that up here we worked really hard to get the herd that we had back around say 1995 to say 2000. The only way we suceeded in getting the elk numbers we had up here were by shutting down either sex elk during the general season, then came the wolves. Jim williams objctives then were having a herd of 3 or 4 hundred elk around the the lost trail refuge. The wolves have steadily decreased the numbers. We would have the herd of 3 or 4 hundred if the wolves weren't there, thats my point.

Houndy, I get what you are saying. When the law changed in 2003 and when the new objectives were adopted in 2004, things changed. The way you got numbers back up in your example, eliminate cow tags, would not be an option today under the new rules, if that unit is green or red.

If we kill every wolf in a unit that is at or over objective, FWP is mandated by law to get or keep numbers low. So, for all the saved mortality from wolf predation, FWP would be forced to go back to cow tags and other mechanism to keep harvest high, to stay within these new objectives.

So, under this current scenario, a green or red unit that has an objective of 150 under the EMP, as you state your unit has for elk right now, will not be allowed to grow to your number of 350 from the late 1990's, as it would be in violation of state law. FWP is required to implement all reasonable means to keep it at 150, if that is the objective under the EMP, even if it has capacity of 350+.

I hate to seem bullheaded about this. Just trying to find examples to show that under the new rules since 2003/2004, wolves surely have an affect, but if wolf predation was completely removed, FWP is legislatively mandated to keep the numbers from growing in green units, and in red units, lower them even further.

If you were comfortable stating what units those are, we could look up the objective, see the current population, and decide if it would be allowed to grow under the current EMP, if all the wolves are shot. Or, if it is like most units, where it is not allowed to grow from where we are today, or worse yet, is to be reduced from its level today.

 

[174in]

Its cleared up for me now thanks Shoots staight and Fin.Law does make it tough to fix.I think someone mentioned about getting cow tags and not filling them.Would this work or would the Fish and game come in and shoot the animals that were not harvested.Or are the non resident cow hunters the problem since they are allowed a certain % of tags.I know 99% of Non res will fill a cow tag if they have a chance.

 

[houndy65]

I understand what you are saying Bigfin, it is so frustraiting, up here its pathic. Hopefully the wolves are moved to the furbearer list, then we can hunt and trap them. The thing is the wolves are going to win, right here by my house, the FWP sent in the Goverment Hunter to kill 6 wolves they ended up killing 28. The HD is 103 that the Lost trail is in and the objective is around 150 to 200 elk, I'm afriad of whats going to happen in the future, they shut down the youth hunt in Region 1. Well anyhow there is no use arguing, we all need to fight for what is right. I do understand your example, it just makes me mad when i think about it.

 

[Big Fin]

Houndy - don't give up the ship. We are not going to let the problems with the Elk Management Plan just fade away. Every time elk numbers are argued in the meetings, the EMP and HB 42 have to be brought up, as it was today.

Today some legislators talked to the Montana Sportsmen Alliance as being willing to carry language that would amend the stupidness of HB42. I think we are building support for changing the objectives and other problems found in the EMP..

At the meeting today were many people who bear some responsibility for HB 42 ad the crazy low objectives in the EMP. They came to complain about wolves and low elk numbers. Yet, in other meetings they complaini about too many elk. Which is it - too many wolves in those units, or too many elk.

Maybe I misread the looks on some faces, but I got a feeling that most everyone in the room knew they can't have it both ways. And since most hate wolves more than they hate elk, we have an opening to go after the EMP and HB 42.

When that happens, every hunter needs to be ready to weigh in on both. The last time those two items came up, we were outnumbered at every meeting, even though we are a much larger group by number. The next year is going to be the time to act.

The wolf fervor is going to be addressed with more wolf management tools in the coming year. Then, if we are really concerned about elk abundance, people will have no choice but to look at the bigger part of the equation.

I hope your chance comes to comment on the EMP objectives for your area and they get set to 350+. And when that is changed, I hope we have wolf numbers down low enough that it can happen.

 

[tjones]

HD103 has an objective of 260 observed.

 

[tjones]

When we get into 2013 things are going to turned up side down when it comes the FWP. Just a side note this just isn't my opinion.

I don't think Fanning will win.

 

[Art Vandeley]

Randy,
This has been an eye opening thread to say the least. There are so many hunters in this state, that do not pay attention to issues like they should, and I admit that I am one of them. Is there a website that I can check to look for local meetings that I could attend and voice my opinion as a hunter? I honestly had no idea that any of this was going on and would be more than willing to put in the time, and attend meetings to help fight this BS.

Thanks
Mitch

 

[houndy65]

no but I hope Rick Hill wins

 

[shoots-straight]

no but I hope Rick Hill wins

Ask him how he stands on this issue. Sense Barret is a Republican, he might not want to upset the cart. If he wins, he could Veto any legislation we pass. I would say this issue alone, is important enough for me to pick a Governor that would support this us.

 

[Jon Boy]

Randy,
This has been an eye opening thread to say the least. There are so many hunters in this state, that do not pay attention to issues like they should, and I admit that I am one of them. Is there a website that I can check to look for local meetings that I could attend and voice my opinion as a hunter? I honestly had no idea that any of this was going on and would be more than willing to put in the time, and attend meetings to help fight this BS.

Thanks
Mitch

I agree, I need to get more involved too. Where do we find out when/where local meetings are at?

 

[shoots-straight]

Houndy,

Just a FYI. In HD 103 119 elk were killed in 2010 by two legged hunters. If there's only 150 elk left that is a problem. They might be lieing about the kill too.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/planahunt/districtDetail.html?p1=Elk&p2=17566304