If you hunt elk in MT, look here!

[MTbowhunter84]

Houndy

There is no doubt that the wolf numbers need to be lowered, but there is a bigger picture here. Not only are the wolf numbers high, but it's not the only thing that is hurting the herd numbers. We can't just look at the wolf numbers and tell ourselves that they are the only thing hurting our herds. With the current EMP, it won't matter what the wolf number is if we don't fix the current plan that is set by our legislation. We can only blame the predators for so much before we need to look in the mirror and fix what we ourselves as hunters are doing.

 

[houndy65]

The real predators are the feds and what they hold over our head. I've been a houndsmen all my life and I know I cannot be a protectionist of the the lion. The trouble is all the predators, their numbers need to come down in order for our ungulate herds to rebound, and that is going to take years. I do know that even when we had the highest cougar numbers (in 1995 I killed 26 lions here in the flathead after the and during the lion season for the FWP) we always had healthy ungulate populations, just look at the moose. The Wolf is the problem!!

 

[tjones]

Pay attention to page 55 of the EMP, it you are in one of the HD's that is over objective and have large numbers of elk on private property. You will find you really are not over objective.

 

[recoil junky]

Not to start a fight, but here in Colorado we've been told the last 5 years that elk AND deer numbers are way above "normal"

BULLSHKWEEZINS!!!

I live on one of the largest elk migration routes in the state and I'm used to seeing herds like this:

And this

pass through my "back yard". Now due to MY calculations we're down to less than 40% of what there was.

Fin, I'm a Montana native. I lived and hunted in the Upper Ruby for nearly 30 years. I saw elk numbers go from "decimated" in the early 70's to "plentiful" in the 90's and now my brother-in-law is telling me the wolves are killing all the elk. I believe him. He hunts/ed the same area as I did year after year and he says elk numbers are down and WOLF numbers are up. Hmm, the math seems pretty simple. If the LOCAL hunters are telling you that elk and deer numbers are down and the DOW is telling you that numbers are GREAT someone is full of it.

It also seems that the greenies and tree huggers are the ones controlling all the information on animal numbers to protect their precious kitties and puppies.

Like houndy says it's all about the dollar sign. Even though hunter success here in NW Colorado is less than 25 % the DOW is saying elk numbers are GREAT just so they can sell more tags :hump::hump:

And that ain't

RJ

 

[BuzzH]

They count the elk and report it. They have no skin in the game. The numbers are then put into the models provided in the Elk Management Plan and that determines the seasons.

When was the last time a season was adjusted in Montana based on elk numbers or deer numbers...other than extended?

One would think with the areas that are under objective, the general elk seasons would be shortened...but they wont be. One would think we'd quit letting "disabled" and youth hunters whack cows in these areas all season. One would think we probably shouldnt be issuing ANY elk b tags. But, nothing is being reduced, the elk continue to take a whoopin'.

Same thing with the deer in the NE corner of Montana...hit hard last year by the weather...still 11 weeks of general hunting.

Houston...we have a problem....

 

[Straight Arrow]

In view of the recent significant impacts on elk numbers by wolves, lions, bears, and other predators, along with the other problems such as too liberal hunting permit numbers and harboring of elk on private lands, I think the time is prime for pushing for review and revision of objective numbers.

If the Montana Sportsmen Alliance and other hunting and wildlife political advocates can get the right legislators elected and establish the right political climate, then there will be a much better opportunity for MT FWP to bring forward the correct information and for FWP to base policies and permit numbers on facts, science, proper wildlife management, and what's best for wildlife populations.

But then .... I have been accused of wearing rose-colored glasses.

 

[BuzzH]

Problem is the FWP doesnt even have correct data to start with.

They have very rough estimates on harvest statistics, population models that are likely out-dated, etc. etc. etc.

We need solid baseline data so bad its not even funny...

I think the system is so far gone...it will take an almost ground up approach now.

 

[BuzzH]

Just another thing to consider on the MTFWP elk numbers.

According to the last data I've seen, they are still claiming there is 135,000-150,000 elk in Montana, similar to numbers we've had for the last 10 years.

Yet, we've lost 10,000-15,000 elk in the Yellowstone herd (again if you believe their numbers), lost a big part of the population in the Bitterroot, have 27 units UNDER Objective. We have late hunts, aggressive seasons, elk b tags...Hunters all across the state are crying about high wolf numbers and low elk numbers.

But, according the FWP we still have 135-150,000 elk.

Something isnt adding up....

Where have we come up with 15,000 more elk to replace just the lose in the Yellowstone herd? How about the low numbers in the 'root? How about the additional elk b tags? How about the cows taken by youth hunters?

 

[thecrittergitter]

the only cuts i've seen in any elk tags in the entire state are the gardiner late hunts and unit 200 in the western part of the state. they used to give 150 tags there and are down to 5.

When they extended season in SW montana for a few years, i was blown away at the stupididy of such decisions.......

We definately need to get back on track for sure!

 

[shoots-straight]

When we didn't have near the wolf problem here in NW montana our elk herds were a lot higher on the Lost Trail National Wildlife Refuge and around it. We had around 300 to 350 elk in 2001, I have video of the elk in the bottom of the refuge. Now in 2012 we are down to about 150 elk. I'm sorry but Ibelieve if the wolf numbers were lowered or completely gone that our elk numbers would bounce back all over the state. The numbers that the Switzer controlled FWP is over blown, I known it to be fact. Montana is the a hunters paradise and Switzer doesn't want to give his FWP a black eye. The last commission meeting on 2/16/12 our wildlfe managers were told from the top that they would not be able to go to the commission meeting, that the region supervisers would give the facts, they didn't have a clue on the true ungulate numbers or could not answer the right questions. We have always had the wildlife managers to answer questions forever at the meetings. The fact is that Switzers college roomate, our director of the FWP doesn't want the people of Montana to know the real numbers.

Houndy your post only makes sense if you believe in conspiracy theory's. The HD that contains the Lost Trail NWR is at objective levels. So no elk increase is in store for that area. Those numbers of elk you photographed in 2001 where from herds that were over objective numbers. That's the point with Fin's thread. Kill off every wolf in that area, and your still not going to raise elk. The Plan won't let it. HB 42 wont let F&G raise anymore elk there.

Your claim that the numbers are a lie, aren't defence able. Come up with some proof. Better yet fly with your local Bio. I'm sure he or she would let you.

 

[BuzzH]

The Plan won't let it. HB 42 wont let F&G raise anymore elk there.

Funny though that statewide, even with herds declining significantly in many areas, the MTFWP still says total elk numbers are not going down...

I'd just like to know where they're growing all these elk to replace the ones we've lost in the last 6-7 years?

 

[shoots-straight]

Randy Newberg is my hero. He testified on this very subject. Way to go Randy.

 

[tjones]

and Debbie Barrett was there.

 

[Big Fin]

and Debbie Barrett was there.

Makes it even a better use of my time.

 

[jabber]

Just a question from a person that has never set foot in MT. Reading through this thread and the talk of the elk herds reducing got me to wondering if that was having a positiive affect for the deer counts?

 

[Big Fin]

Just a question from a person that has never set foot in MT. Reading through this thread and the talk of the elk herds reducing got me to wondering if that was having a positiive affect for the deer counts?

Hard to tell, as we shoot the hell out of deer just like we are on elk.

 

[Sytes]

Oh, and just a comment, many of the yellow, under objective areas are still going to issue elk B-tags.

I have always been curious regarding these B-Tags... I constantly put in for these and have a reasonable draw rate. I would much rather it serve as an option to hunt either, though not both.... It certainly boosts my opportunities in browtime only areas for harvesting an elk.

This is the first I have seen this map, thanks Randy.

 

[tjones]

That map is good info, it was handed out at all the tentative meetings.

 

[Jon Boy]

The liberal tags and season is obviously have a negative affect on the herds.
This may need to be in another thread topic but, what would you guys propose for new seasons, tags, limits, etc?

 

[tjones]

The liberal tags and season is obviously have a negative affect on the herds.
This may need to be in another thread topic but, what would you guys propose for new seasons, tags, limits, etc?

New seasons have all ready been proposed and finaled. They are in the new regs.