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Effective at what? I'm not suggesting the idea to help manage pronghorn but rather manage point creep.Would think more effective to drop quotas and raise prices
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Effective at what? I'm not suggesting the idea to help manage pronghorn but rather manage point creep.Would think more effective to drop quotas and raise prices
Fair enough, I misinterpreted when I saw mention of pronghorn populationEffective at what? I'm not suggesting the idea to help manage pronghorn but rather manage point creep.
I may have worded it poorly. Essentially trying to say, if populations are high and tags relatively easy to obtain then burning pp's on a doe tag seems like a bad idea. When supply goes down and point creep is increasing at an unsustainable level then using pp's on all tags makes more sense. At least IMO.Fair enough, I misinterpreted when I saw mention of pronghorn population
Agreed antelope in Wyoming is the prime example. I used my WY antelope points in 2019 would have been perfectly happy to use my points on doe tags (especially if you could still draw two) every couple/few years versus getting back in the point pool for another type 1. Maybe instead of adopting all reduced price tags into the point pool do it like Wyoming already does elk make a type 4 for popular units with quality hunting.I may have worded it poorly. Essentially trying to say, if populations are high and tags relatively easy to obtain then burning pp's on a doe tag seems like a bad idea. When supply goes down and point creep is increasing at an unsustainable level then using pp's on all tags makes more sense. At least IMO.
Agreed antelope in Wyoming is the prime example. I used my WY antelope points in 2019 would have been perfectly happy to use my points on doe tags (especially if you could still draw two) every couple/few years versus getting back in the point pool for another type 1. Maybe instead of adopting all reduced price tags into the point pool do it like Wyoming already does elk make a type 4 for popular units with quality hunting.
We just need fewer people and more critters and more places to hunt easy peasy, we invade CAN.
I can get on board with 1 and 3. I would also like to see every state switch to a system like Arizona where it is a bonus point system and not a preference point system.Agreed, but I’m agreement with wllm that these three things would really help:
1. Must apply for draw to earn a point.
2. No refunds for drawn tags.
3. All tags reset points to zero (certain antlerless/doe tags exempt).
The truest thing said here. 99% of them don't care whether we like it or not. They just show up to their government job, make their government salary, and will only do enough to make sure their government ass doesn't get fired.I think that we overestimate the number of shits given by F & G departments in helping increase our draw odds or making it more "fair"
I'm all about NR points for doe pronghorn...$25 sound about right?There was a time I agreed with this, but given the way Pronghorn pops are going it might be worth doing. With abundant, relatively easy to obtain doe tags, maybe not so much.
I'd buy 'emI'm all about NR points for doe pronghorn...$25 sound about right?
I wonder how much revenue would be generated?
A significant price increase for doe tags as well. No wonder people roll out with three tags in their pocket at $34 a friggin pop.I'm all about NR points for doe pronghorn...$25 sound about right?
I wonder how much revenue would be generated?
Three? Thought only two was possible? But agree wholeheartedly on raising their priceA significant price increase for doe tags as well. No wonder people roll out with three tags in their pocket at $34 a friggin pop.
But in NV, they took whatever points you may have had. In CO, you keep them, and you get one for that year. As do the thousands of others that buy returned tags. Huge contributor to creep here. Another illustration of one-size not fitting all Since the tag numbers are wildly different.Also, in the same vein, I'd be ok if states did not allow tags to be returned. It would help the issue to some tiny extent. Sure, I understand that people get sick or hurt or have personal issues. Life happens. Even though I benefited from a returned late deer tag in NV on a drought year that I put to good use, I'd love to see it go away in some states. But again, going back to my earlier point,
I agree ‘they‘ don’t care much about our odds. While it would do a lot to curb creep, outside of bad customer service interactions, creep isn’t a primary problem they are trying to solve. Even while, as this thread and hundreds like it demonstrate, it’s important to us as hunters.why would F & G departments abruptly stop allowing tags to be returned and resold? They do not care about our odds. They are in a unique situation where they can sell a single piece of paper twice instead of just once, and keep the money from both buyers. Imagine a store owner who sold you a TV, then you take it back to him happily a month later (without a refund) because you decided you wanted a TV from him the next year instead that you would pay for yet again. Then he takes the TV you had and sells it again a day later. And the next year you are in line trying to buy that same TV again. Why in the hell would the store owner stop doing this? Why would F & G agencies stop doing this? The only reason they would stop doing this is if they decided that the resources needed to deal with all of the tag returns are more expensive than what they are making selling x number of tags twice. I do not think this would be the case, however.
We can ask Montana, right? Don’t they sell them for $25? Pretty sure. And the reason I’m pretty sure is that I was once the proud owner of a doe mule deer point. But my point accumulation/usage patterns suggest that I’m mentally ill.I'm all about NR points for doe pronghorn...$25 sound about right?
I wonder how much revenue would be generated?
I think you may be a little off with your assessment that a TV salesman would not like his TVs returned and not have to issue a refund. He could literally throw them in a dumpster and be in the same position as the first sale, since again, he isn't giving a monetary refund. Your comparison isn't even apples to oranges....it's like comparing apples to Jupiter.But in NV, they took whatever points you may have had. In CO, you keep them, and you get one for that year. As do the thousands of others that buy returned tags. Huge contributor to creep here. Another illustration of one-size not fitting all Since the tag numbers are wildly different.
I agree ‘they‘ don’t care much about our odds. While it would do a lot to curb creep, outside of bad customer service interactions, creep isn’t a primary problem they are trying to solve. Even while, as this thread and hundreds like it demonstrate, it’s important to us as hunters.
The bolded section is the key. The same reason retailers don’t incentivize or generally make product returns easy (some exceptions like Nordstrom that basically built an entire returns infrastructure as a competitive advantage and/or luxury goods where margins are so high it doesnt matter much). Having been in supply chain/distribution my whole career, Returns are a ‘bad’ outcome. I’d rather you keep the widget most of the time since it will cost me more to engage CS, process the return, deal with the vendor, and make the products saleable again than the widget is worth. That also means I’m likely going to raise the average item price since there is more cost if it’s consistently returned.
Loose tag Return/Reissue policy is largely a Colorado problem. They seem to stop just short of outright encouraging returns. They (CPW) also seem to consider it a competitive advantage. And, they are now heavily invested in the infrastructure to support it. Now that the timeline of the primary draw is shortening, is helping to a degree, but it’s a huge effort and expense to deal with.
No returns for any reason would be fine with me. Make an exception for MSG to carry over to the following year given the nature of those hunts and those resources. The rest, sorry, life happens.
The TV salesman in your example probably wouldn’t like that scenario either, and even less so if it happened thousands of times a year. Beyond the real cost of handling the return, restocking and reselling it (the true cost of that piece of inventory is now much larger than it was the first time). They would need to forecast and purchase new inventory accordingly, which would be much harder/more complex (thus more costly) if return rates are high. Hunting tags are functionally finite and have a hard expiration date, so that part is less of a concern.
Apologies, I missed the part in your post about the returner not choosing a refund (“keep the money from both buyers”). In CO, you can choose to get a refund. Quite common choice for many “low point” returned tags. In that case tag holder #1 loses their points, but then the next person who gets the tag doesn’t have to use their points, so point creep results.I think you may be a little off with your assessment that a TV salesman would not like his TVs returned and not have to issue a refund.
I would welcome the chance to dig into detailed operational financials but I doubt that will happen unless I end up in the General Assembly.I think you're mistaken to think that your scenario in the last part of your post equates to what is happening with tag returns. If what you're saying is true for this scenario, states are losing money with tag returns.
I personally like the people just applying for points for a couple reasons:
1. They don't compete with me in the draw.
2. They provide revenue without extracting from the resource. Revenue that would be lost if they had to apply. If managing the resource is a priority, it needs to be funded an revenue has to be a priority.