Idaho's biggest bulls here

[Idaho Ron]

1-pointer, most of our units here in southern part have a GOOD amount of public land and access. I have only hunted private land once and we didn't even get a elk there. All of my elk and deer have came from public land.
It is funny that the thought is either elk are ten miles into a wilderness area or in the borrow pit next to the paved road. What I am saying is that here in our part of the state elk herds are expanding. The size of the bulls and bucks are FAR better than what is being killed in the "wilderness" areas. A guy might have to get a couple of miles off the road, but then again maybe not. Not all the best come from a wilderness area. BTW, if everyone went to the wilderness would it still be a quality experience? Sucess rates are falling in our wilderness areas. At the same time the non-wilderness areas are seeing a increase in population. Anyone answer this. If the wilderness is the only place for the big ones why do we have draw odds that are 50 to 1 of even worse? Ron

 

[Deerslayer]

Idahoe Ron says:

"The size of the bulls and bucks are FAR better than what is being killed in the "wilderness" areas."

...Ron, is there any truth to that statement or is that something you just threw out there? Are the bulls outside of the wilderness really bigger than the bulls within the wilderness boundary? I wonder what it is that makes the wilderness bulls grow smaller? Maybe the lack of hunting pressure or lack of stress being in a roadless area doesn't stimulate their hearts as much, therefore a decreased arithmia...slower bloodflow....muscle retention......etc...etc....makes since now.

I'll call the boys.....change of plans.....our backcountry hunt in a few weeks has been moved from 15 miles backin and changed to downtown Aspen....afterall, we do want to increase our odds

 

[Idaho Ron]

All I can tell you is what happens here in Idaho. I am a reservest for Idaho F&G. I can tell you that the the largest bulls here are being killed NOT in the wilderness areas. The clearwater has had a drop in overall numbers not just bulls. I know for a fact that our late season counts are saying that we have a LOT better bull to cow ratio than the selway or the frank church. Our unit 49 had a bull to cow ratio of 49 bulls to 100 cows. I can't remember the exact number for unit 45 but ratio was higher for bulls than cows!
The selway and the FC have lots of hunters and wolves. The middle fork zone is even being restricted to antlerless or brow-tined bulls. They did this because of a problem with the number of breeding bulls.
I can tell you our elk in the more roaded end of the state are over populating to the point we have had open cow hunts. lets compair the selway zone (wilderness) to the snake river zone (non wilderness) the selway has an A tag good for antlered only Oct 1 to the 31 st. The B tag is good for antlered only Sept 15 to the 30th. then Nov 1 to the 18th. I know lots of people that hunt the selway. They are seeing less elk every year. Most blame wolves but the fact that the trail head looks like a town has something to do with it. I have not heard of a good bull in the last five years being killed there, but I am sure they are still getting a few 300 class bulls. I don't know of anyone personally that is shooting deer in there at all.
Now lets look at the snake river zone. elk hunts start august 1 and go to Dec 31st either sex. Like I said before, three bulls over 380, and two bucks over 260 were killed there in the last I think five years. One of the bulls was poached and is now in the custody of the F&G.
Maybe the back country hunts where you hunt are great. The fact is more and more hunters are going to these hunts. Everyone is saying how great the back country hunts are and to be honest I don't see it. Not here. A guy can get a couple of miles off the road here and have great hunts without going to a wilderness area. Ron

 

[Idaho Ron]

DS I also forgot to ask you. What is the size of bulls you get in the wilderness areas? Ron

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ron, What do you think has caused the decline of good bulls in the wilderness areas?

 

[Idaho Ron]

37, I personally think in the clearwater the reason for a total decline in numbers is the lack of fire to restore the habitat. Other reasons like predators has been kicked around. Even to the point as having extra tags open for bears and lions. I think that some prescribed burning in the clearwater would help big time.
If we are looking at just the reduction in bull numbers in the wilderness areas. I would have to say that over harvesting the mature bulls would have to fit in there somewhere. This is along with a low recruitment level of younger bulls (aka calf survival) Ron

 

[Deerslayer]

Ron, my point is, if you have 50,000 elk harvested in or near roaded areas and 1,000 harvested in the back country, you will obviously have some good bulls killed, as well as tons of dinks too. Just because the numbers say the vast majority of the harvest is coming from roaded areas in no way means the bulls there "are bigger" than the wilderness areas. It simply means the masses are hunting there thus more game killed in general, not just bigger bulls.

You may be a reserve F&G, but they obviously didn't require you to be a biology major. Because any first year biology student knows when game over populates, as you claim they are in many of the roaded units, the size of the bucks and bulls do not reach their full potential.

I personally have not killed a bull over 300 but have seen many with huge ass racks and know of several harvested that went 350+ in unroaded areas. This last hunt Dan and I was on in the Gila a guy took a nice 7x8 through our camp that pushed 400. The quantity has been there as well.
In Co we are 100% in 3 years with 10 elk tags being filled........most guided hunts cant boast them odds.....not to mention roaded hunts.

Your spin on the harvest records fails to showthe sheer masses of hunters that lay siege to the roaded areas each year. You get great bulls from that harvest as well as shitty ones. But to insinuate that bulls in the wilderness areas "grow smaller" than bulls near roads sounds plain ludicrous to me. The 3 things that grow big bulls and bucks are genetices, quality food, and AGE. Have you seen the meadows at 10,000 feet? Grass green and 2'high! So much feed that it is hard to hunt them based on where they will feed. But the main thing is they have a better chance to grow old being isolated.....even you post suggest that. So what would make them not prosper and get huge?

My personal experience while hunting Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico is that the bulls I have seen in the back country have been larger and in larger groups from lack of pressure, while the ones in roaded areas have been mostly raghorns and fleeing for their lives.

Just because you say Idaho hunters aren't harvested as many big bulls in the wilderness does not mean they aren't there......in fact, I would think just the opposite. The fewer they harvest, the more left there to grow even bigger. I have hunted unit 20, the selway/bitteroot wilderness.....and I can tell you the bulls were there, and that was about as rugged as the lower 48 get,....the biggest reason for it being hard to harvest in there. The bulls and bucks were there, but that shit is like hunting elk in sheep country, and not everyone can do that.

Look at this way,.....kinda like taking a charter out in the gulf....the captain says we can fish here in close and catch a bunch of 30# Amberjack.....or go out another 50 miles and try for Marlin, and hope to catch one. One boat comes in with a load of 30# Amberjack, the other went for Marlin but didn't catch one. So obvoiusly there are no Marlin in the Ocean, right?...and the most AND biggest fish were closer in, right?

Keep hunting the roads.....meanwhile, I'm going out for Marlin

 

[The Hedgehog]

My guess is that if Idaho is anything like Montana, there are probably zero places that are roaded and a big animal can be taken without one or more of the following ingredients: heavy snow, a limited quota permit and/or resticted private land, or extraordinary luck.

 

[Deerslayer]

Ron, I will say one more thing and then let it rest....

If you told me of two places I could hunt, and asked me to choose one......the first being in the backcountry and the second being a roaded area. You told me in the backcountry I would see 50% less game but run into no other hunters while hunting, and the roaded area I would see 50% more game but have to contend with other hunters......it would be a no brainer for me, I'd head in the backcountry. You see, I don't need 1000's of head of animals to do well....just a few. But when I find them, nothing ruins a hunt more than other hunter pressure. On the hunts in Co years ago when we would harvest near roads with 100's of other hunters around and nearby, the hunt was less fun than now when we head in the backcountry and come out empty. That is a factor of hunting the backcountry all your spin on harvest records can never change. There is nothing like being isolated in the backcountry hunting big game for me.......so you can claim my spot near the roads for yourself......I;ll be "back in".....

Good luck and good hunting....
DS

 

[raybow 1]

I would have to agree that in Washington it is extraordinary luck when hunting off the roads. Yet every year you hear of someone taking a toad with it being their first time out and walked 20 feet off the road.

I would also add this to the mix. If you have an area you consistently do well in are you going to advertise where that area is, or are you gonna fudge a little. Where is it that most people go when looking for info on a certain area? Record books and Fish and Game stats? I don't know personally but I do know that if I were hunting wilderness with success I wouldn't openly advertize! I think the most accurate info would come from the biologists that study the areas and from those who have the savvy to learn for themselves.

 

[wilecoyote76]

After reading previous posts regarding the use of 70's chevy pickups to hunt elk close to roads makes me laugh!

This year while my brother and I were heading to our normal hunting spots, we damn near $hit canned a 6 point bull crossing a highway going to water. We turned the truck around to scan the CRP fields for him but soon realized he was running down the fence not 10 feet from the truck and again crossed in front of us. To make things worse, we let it get light and drove to a spot where we thought he would be headed and sure enough we saw the stupid bastard about 300 yards from us now turning and heading for the same spot where we first saw him about 45 minutes earlier. Thinking it was way too funny and knowing this bull wanted a serious death wish, we hauled ass back to the highway and nearly hit him a third time. My brother and I were laughing the whole time because in all the years I have hunted elk, this had to be the dumbest SOB out there.

Oh, and by the way, we were driving a 1970 Chevy pickup nicknamed 'Avocado'. No mirrors on this beast but it does have a strong 350 suited for running down stupid elk. The truck is not for sale but might be soon if we run down and hit an elk with it. Keep your eye out for it in the classified section!!!

 

[Idaho Ron]

DS, you are the man. You are right I am wrong. With this letter I am done replying to you.
You said
"You may be a reserve F&G, but they obviously didn't require you to be a biology major. Because any first year biology student knows when game over populates, as you claim they are in many of the roaded units, the size of the bucks and bulls do not reach their full potential"
Please, I know you are a well educated biology major and would love to give the info where we can read that for our selfs. Better yet please, just copy and paste them to a page here. That way we can read the reasons that ruin the elk hunting by having lots of elk and a high bull to cow ratio.
When a lot of animals are reaching breeding age, and the bull to cow ratio is 1 bull for every two cows or even more just how is this bad? In your world does the Ratio need is more like 1 bull for every 100 cows. Also why is Idaho's F&G trying to boost bull to cow ratios in the units ABOVE the salmon river? Maybe they should ignore their winter counts and just take your word for it.
Then again what do they tell the hunters that are pissed off because of a lack of big bulls. DS said hunt harder and farther into the wilderness!
I tell everyone right now! STOP shooting the 325 to 380 class bulls only a mile or two off the roads here in southern Idaho. This is the wrong way to hunt. EVERYONE GO to the OFFICIAL WILDERNESS areas and shoot a rag horns like DS does. It is much more fullfilling. Don't worry about running into him I guess he is fishing for marlin or something.
Ron

 

[raybow 1]

Ron:
You can't only go by stats that the dept has because they only get what people give. There are some big a$$ bulls taken out of the wilderness than one never hears of. I know this for a fact. It's like a great fishing hole; are you gonna tell everyone where you get those great big slabs or are you gonna tell a little fish story. One thing we all knoiw is if you tell people where you caught them you're not going to be alone the next time, That's a guarantee!! That's not to say there are not big bulls harvested close because we know there are, I personally take stats with a grain of salt sometimes.

I know in my neck of the woods that big bulls will travel farther to breed than some do in migration. Those big 380 class bulls one talks about more than likely are not residential bulls, but rether bulls that have come considerable distance to breed. And yes, they do come from remote secluded areas like the wilderness. Big bulls will always sacrifice their safety from predation for seclusion, where the herds will sacrifice seclusion for their safety from predation. What are your thoughts on hunter stats in the wilderness? Do you think they are fairly accurate?

 

[Deerslayer]

Originally posted by Idaho Ron:
DS, you are the man. ....well thanks, Ron, that certainly means alot coming from you.

Please, I know you are a well educated biology major and would love to give the info where we can read that for our selfs. ....actully Ron, my courses at LSU in biology were not my major, but I did learn the basics. I also did not major in English, but learned enough to know you should have written "read it for ourselves" instead of "our selfs"....but then again, your major is F&G Reservists and not Biology OR English, right?

That way we can read the reasons that ruin the elk hunting by having lots of elk and a high bull to cow ratio. .....now where can you show me I said having a high bull to cow ratio is bad?.....or said ANYTHING about bull to cow ration for that matter? I do understand your mad and tend to start making things up when you get that way, but please try not to make up things in order to try and prove a point.

...actually, my reference was to your comment on the "overpopulating herds" near the roads. When herds overpopulate, they are more susceptable to diseases as well as starvation and winter kill. That is the reason the CDOW has offered up to 3 elk tags per hunter in a great majority of it's larger units the last several years......they know booming animal numbers can get out of control and be devastaing for the herds. That is not to say high bull ratios aren't good, but this can be acquired by thinning the herd of more cows....as they are accomplishing with the two extra cow tags offered to hunters.

.....and for the record, having a ton of bulls at breeding age in a herd is not as magical as you would make it out to be. With bucks and bulls, ideally we would want the very best of the species to do the majority of the reproducing in order to keep the very best genes in the pool. But the herd bulls' job becomes much harder if they have a ton of little raggys running around trying to pop a cow every chance they get. That is why trophy programs cull out the lessor bulls.....too many bulls does not equate to bigger bulls.

I tell everyone right now! STOP shooting the 325 to 380 class bulls only a mile or two off the roads here in southern Idaho. ...so you have any stats on all these great bulls being taken from the roads, Ron?......or is this just you throwing stuff out there again?

EVERYONE GO to the OFFICIAL WILDERNESS areas and shoot a rag horns like DS does. ......Your right Ron....I'm just killing raghorns. Like the 3 28"-30" muleys, a couple of nice bears, the full curl+ ram, and several bulls I'd call "nice" I've taken in only 3 to 4 years of hunting the backcountry. So many raghorns in fact that I have 6 to 8 guys a year wanting to hook up and go back in with me for a shot at these raghorns. But more importantly, almost everytrip in, regardless of the state, we see some truely GREAT bulls. Try and dis my kill record if you want and it makes you feel better.....but I , in fact, am pretty proud of it. And I know from seeing guys like Raybow and Greenhorn consistently nailing monsters in the backcountry that things will only get better for me. Though it appears you are insinuating until I kill a 325-380 bull I have accomplished nothing. I disagree with you on that. I am killing good animals, but more importantly, seeing and putting myself in a position to have a chance at killing some "great" animals.

Don't worry about running into him I guess he is fishing for marlin or something.
Ron

......yeah, don't worry about running into me Ron.....I already told you you can have my spot near the road.......

 

[Ithaca 37]

This is pretty interesting. All I have to add to it at this point is that I would NEVER let out the info on where I got a good animal. I make up some pretty imaginative stories about where we get good hunting. The more people press me for information, the more ridiculous stories and locations I come up with. I feel sorry for some of the guys I give hunting info to! They might see some game, but I sure wouldn't hunt there unless I had a helicopter to fly me in and out!

[ 09-26-2004, 15:18: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

 

[Deerslayer]

Good point Ithaca......for instance....the last 3 years I have SUPPOSEDLY been hunting unit 25 in the Flat Tops Wilderness.....truth is I have never actually been there and haven't hunted within 100 miles from there in more than 5 years.....but that is just a technicality, right?! ........what's the old saying?..."the units have been changed to protect the innocent!"

 

[The Hedgehog]

You guys need to take out some frustrations on an elk and quit arguing.

Last night while with both my kids (and all my hunting gear) I was glassing elk in a wilderness area from a roaded area. Saw a few dandy's from the truck, but WAY off. Then I noticed about a mile away on the roaded side a pile of elk in a recent burn, visible from the road, plain as day. Two big six points with about 40 cows. This was afternoon on a Saturday. I'm going back with a friend as soon as my wife gets home... road hunting baby. Hope to have some extraordinary luck.

 

[MarvB]

Ithaca

I make up some pretty imaginative stories about where we get good hunting. The more people press me for information, the more ridiculous stories and locations I come up with. I feel sorry for some of the guys I give hunting info to!

...while I'm not one to give up my few and far between honey holes either I also don't get off on sending other people of a wild goose chase.
I feel better explaining to someone that the spots I have found have some from hard work, trial and error, and yes, a lot of luck in some instances and that many of these spots wouldn't hold up under additional hunting pressure.

Your right in that some folks want GPS coordinates the minute they catch wind of success but, again, I'd have to really dislike someone to purposely send them off to someplace I knew didn't hold game

 

[GatoMan]

I maybe mistaken but I think Idahos biggest bull was shot out of a hayfeild..... no where near wilderness and no where near large stands of timber......

 

[Deerslayer]

.....and many private ranches and their hayfields DO hold some giant bulls......as well as game farms....and some of the greatest places for trophys are units located in the foothills that have tons of giant bulls(and about15 bonus points required).......and this is why we see most of the hunting shows done on ranches or private ground....big bulls with little pressure. But the debate was on the statement that bulls "grow bigger near roads".....and I say they don't, that's simply ludicrous. They are just merely near more people there, thus making them seen and killed more often than their equally bruiser brothers in the backcountry.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to here it, did it make a noise? If a giant 430" bull dies of old age in the wilderness, did he not exist just because Ron's truck couldn't get close enough to see him?