I Wish Them Well, Wolves verus Elk Hoof Rot Disease

[TheJason]

In summary, I have concluded that like birds, wolves aren’t actually real. They are just mind control agents the government is using to alter our understanding of reality so they can control us.

It’s about time you rubes started figuring this out.

 

[longbow51]

What some folks fail to realize is the new generation of gray wolves are “smart wolves 2.0”, not to be confused with the original “non native super wolves “ that were reintroduced.

While the introduced wolves ate everything with life and breath,from insects to ungulates, even stealing infants from the cribs they were sleeping in, wolf generation 2.0 are a more enlightened and helpful type of predator, focused on ending diseases and dispersing overpopulated ungulates in specific locales.

I didn’t graduate from any major university but I have had extensive studies in sarcasm from Hunttalk U. and I note there is an amazing phenomenon that associates with wolf discussions. After exhausting research and countless hours of reading responses I have concluded that wolves are actually mind control agents who not only have the ability to run down their prey, they also infect a significant portion of the human population mentally.

This infection is expressed hyperbolically with extreme statements both pro wolf or anti-wolf. Truth statements about wolves tend to resemble religious arguments rather than an examination of data points and logical conclusions.

In summary, I have concluded that like birds, wolves aren’t actually real. They are just mind control agents the government is using to alter our understanding of reality so they can control us.

OK, GM, schooled me on the new wolves. And I also erred in mentioning cows instead of "birthing ungulates".

 

[Gerald Martin]

OK, GM, schooled me on the new wolves. And I also erred in mentioning cows instead of "birthing ungulates".

Oh, I am in total agreement with you. I just wanted to make sure that the knowledge I have accumulated from staying at Holiday Inn several times isn’t lost from the pool of human wisdom so I thought it appropriate to share with everyone.

You are welcome, world. I don’t expect a grand outpouring of appreciation for all I do for you.

 

[Dakotakid]

If any bar stool biologists are buying beers, I like to drink red ale while I listen and nod encouragingly while contemplating the previous bar stool biologist soliloquy professing the opposite simplistic of solution to a complex environmental issue.

This is not sarcasm, I like red ale.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Not even going to bother reading from you further. I have actually worked on the very issues you want to argue about, yet you refuse to acknowledge that you fail to get even the basic facts on this subject correct. Not worth my time to engage in that type of discussion. Not sure I’ve ever encountered another “biologist” peddling quite your variety of “science”.

Your posts make it painfully obvious you a) have an agenda, and will twist the science to support it and b) don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

To HW,



Predators select the weak. Wolves are predators



Elk with hoof rot limp. Limping is a sign of extreme weakness.



What about 2 plus 2 = 4 are you missing in this basic predator prey example ecological math” Can’t see the forest for the trees?



I can understand these other nay saying posts. As one fellow stated, he got his degree in Sarcasm from Hunt Talk U,,,,,,,but you?

A biologist. I am amazed. I guess you can just put yout biology degree and crtical thinking aside and replace it with a hunting license and tribal groupthink.

 

[TheJason]

A biologist. I am amazed. I guess you can just put yout biology degree and crtical thinking aside and replace it with a hunting license and tribal groupthink.

Aren’t we sanctimonious today?

 

[BrentD]

To HW,



Predators select the weak. Wolves are predators



Elk with hoof rot limp. Limping is a sign of extreme weakness.



What about 2 plus 2 = 4 are you missing in this basic predator prey example ecological math” Can’t see the forest for the trees?



I can understand these other nay saying posts. As one fellow stated, he got his degree in Sarcasm from Hunt Talk U,,,,,,,but you?

A biologist. I am amazed. I guess you can just put yout biology degree and crtical thinking aside and replace it with a hunting license and tribal groupthink.

You really don't know when to quit. You are striking out across the board with people that actually understand the issue.
Please cease and desist.

 

[Rockybay]

I like bacon on my eggs, they taste better that way.

 

[TXPROSTAR]

I have only seen this with cattle where I am located..

 

[longbow51]

Dude, if you want to hang around, better quit while you're ahead. I'm a relative newbie, but personal insults don't fly much here.

 

[Big Fin]

To HW,



Predators select the weak. Wolves are predators



Elk with hoof rot limp. Limping is a sign of extreme weakness.



What about 2 plus 2 = 4 are you missing in this basic predator prey example ecological math” Can’t see the forest for the trees?



I can understand these other nay saying posts. As one fellow stated, he got his degree in Sarcasm from Hunt Talk U,,,,,,,but you?

A biologist. I am amazed. I guess you can just put yout biology degree and crtical thinking aside and replace it with a hunting license and tribal groupthink.

If you are the scientist you claim to be, put your data up for people to decide on their own. If your data has holes or blind spots, expect it to be challenged by the multitude of scientists who hang out on HT. If you cannot operate that way and your frustrations/insecurities require you to label everyone else as the dumbass, I suggest you take your posts and opinions to the echo chamber of armchair experts formerly known as Facebook.

 

[BuzzH]

To HW,



Predators select the weak. Wolves are predators



Elk with hoof rot limp. Limping is a sign of extreme weakness.



What about 2 plus 2 = 4 are you missing in this basic predator prey example ecological math” Can’t see the forest for the trees?



I can understand these other nay saying posts. As one fellow stated, he got his degree in Sarcasm from Hunt Talk U,,,,,,,but you?

A biologist. I am amazed. I guess you can just put yout biology degree and crtical thinking aside and replace it with a hunting license and tribal groupthink.

I think everyone knows the theory of predators selecting the weakest, slowest whatever theory.

But, its a theory and IMO/E not always the reality.

I think wolves and animals that work in a pack like way its more true that they will select the slowest and those that may be physically limited somehow.

Lions, I don't think that at all, its any ungulate that's in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So, even your 2+2=4 argument isn't necessarily so. IMO, that is a clear lack of critical thinking as prey selection and what animal lives and dies via a predator is NOT a 2+2=4 situation.

My Dad shot this deer a number of years back in country my family has hunted since the late 1940's.

This is one of the highest density lion areas in the State of Montana. I typically cut 1-2 lion tracks a day while deer hunting, sometimes several a day. Wolves are present as well, but not nearly as many of those as lions.

If your "theory" were correct, how does a whitetail buck missing a front leg survive a year or maybe more, in that country?

I know others that have killed elk missing legs, deer missing legs, etc.

Point being that yes, physical limitations no question make ungulates more vulnerable to predators. But, deer, elk, etc. are flat tough as well and even with limited mobility and other issues, its not like they don't have a brain or that they're just going to flop over and die when they see a predator either.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

If you are the scientist you claim to be, put your data up for people to decide on their own. If your data has holes or blind spots, expect it to be challenged by the multitude of scientists who hang out on HT. If you cannot operate that way and your frustrations/insecurities require you to label everyone else as the dumbass, I suggest you take your posts and opinions to the echo chamber of armchair experts formerly known as Facebook.

These articles provide reliable examples of how natural selection may operate in the wild and proves that predators mainly prey on substandard individuals.

The Young, the Weak and the Sick: Evidence of Natural Selection by Predation - PMC

It is assumed that predators mainly prey on substandard individuals, but even though some studies partially support this idea, evidence with large sample sizes, exhaustive analysis of prey and robust analysis is lacking. We gathered data from a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

When Mountain Lions Hunt, They Prey on the Weak (Published 2009)

Mountain lions seem to actively seek out mule deer infected with chronic wasting disease.

www.nytimes.com

When disease threatens animals, predators might provide the remedy

When disease shows up in wild animal populations, there aren't pharmacies or vets to turn to. The best solution might actually be the one thing they spend their lives avoiding—predators.

phys.org

 

[BigHornRam]

When it comes to wolves there is not a lot of middle ground. One extreme or the other. I have to agree with the wolf lady on this segment, wolves are better hunters than most humans and that bothers a number of hunters. The wolf lady is also nuts! Plenty of examples here of healthy animals being killed by the pack, not just sick, weak and injured. It is what it is.

Additional comment. You don't see the bighorns wintering at the mouth of Soda Butte Creek like you used to. The dead ram in the video maybe not as uncommon as we would like to think. Would be a nice unlimited sheep don't you think @EYJONAS! . Tough place to winter at any rate, wolves or no wolves.

 

[Panda Bear]

But, its a theory and IMO/E not always the reality.
.

Lions, I don't think that at all, its any ungulate that's in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So, even your 2+2=4 argument isn't necessarily so. IMO, that is a clear lack of critical thinking as prey selection and what animal lives and dies via a predator is NOT a 2+2=4 situation.

.

This is our experience as well.

When it comes to wolves there is not a lot of middle ground. One extreme or the other. I have to agree with the wolf lady on this segment, wolves are better hunters than most humans and that bothers a number of hunters. The wolf lady is also nuts! Plenty of examples here of healthy animals being killed by the pack, not just sick, weak and injured. It is what it is.

Additional comment. You don't see the bighorns wintering at the mouth of Soda Butte Creek like you used to. The dead ram in the video maybe not as uncommon as we would like to think. Would be a nice unlimited sheep don't you think @EYJONAS! . Tough place to winter at any rate, wolves or no wolves.

I do sympathize with those who lose livestock ( their livelihood ) to the Wolf and understand how something that was not there when you started ranching, is "re-introduced" into your area and you lose livestock to that re-introduced predator.

I am in a different place ( both geographically and mind ) I love the hearing the Wolf, watching the Wolf ( especially a pack of Arctic Wolves moving across the ice ) and believe they are essential ---in our area !

But, as Buzz stated, they dont look for a crippled anything when they are hunting--they just hunt.

Since we live in different areas I will not presume to know, but would be asking myself and others. Can healthy "looking" Elk also be transporting this disease ? How can we eliminate this problem in the future ? If we cheer on the wolves to eliminate the sick Wolves, how do we cast them as bad guys after the sick ones are all gone and they kill healthy ones.

IMHO you are so determined to be right on this one point, that you have lost sight of the big picture. Attacking Hunting Wife's credentials will not further your argument. And one last thought. Is it possible, that you are wrong, or even partially wrong and dialog instead of accusations might enlighten us all, including you. Just a thought

One last comment to BHR---the one fellow in the tape you posted, kept saying "Canadian" in a way, I was beginning to dislike Canadians AND their wolfs

 

[TheTone]

Friend sent me a picture of a gnarly elk hoof and whitetail hoof last night from the heart of Idaho wolf and industrial (sprayed) timberland last night. Hunters beat the wolves to them I guess

 

[Mustangs Rule]

This is our experience as well.



I do sympathize with those who lose livestock ( their livelihood ) to the Wolf and understand how something that was not there when you started ranching, is "re-introduced" into your area and you lose livestock to that re-introduced predator.

I am in a different place ( both geographically and mind ) I love the hearing the Wolf, watching the Wolf ( especially a pack of Arctic Wolves moving across the ice ) and believe they are essential ---in our area !

But, as Buzz stated, they dont look for a crippled anything when they are hunting--they just hunt.

Since we live in different areas I will not presume to know, but would be asking myself and others. Can healthy "looking" Elk also be transporting this disease ? How can we eliminate this problem in the future ? If we cheer on the wolves to eliminate the sick Wolves, how do we cast them as bad guys after the sick ones are all gone and they kill healthy ones.

IMHO you are so determined to be right on this one point, that you have lost sight of the big picture. Attacking Hunting Wife's credentials will not further your argument. And one last thought. Is it possible, that you are wrong, or even partially wrong and dialog instead of accusations might enlighten us all, including you. Just a thought

One last comment to BHR---the one fellow in the tape you posted, kept saying "Canadian" in a way, I was beginning to dislike Canadians AND their wolfs

I was not attacking her credentials. I reviewed her many posts and her background was clear.

What I was adamantly diagreeing with was the postion she was taking, which to me seemed biased and based on old science and refused to consider bio remediation via predators.

I offered examples of limiting the hunting of small preadtors in europe and that resulting in marked reduction in lyme's disease transmitted to people because rodents carryig the disease were reduced.

I offered the website of one of the most cutting edge wildlife biologists, Ellen Brandell, who is a world class specialist in wildlife diseases. I offered Dr. Brandell's suggestion that under certain circumstamces an estabished predator guild could prevent a new disease from gaining a foothold.

Further i offered a very clear distincting between the deepy in place elk hoof rot at the jackson hole feeding grounds and barely beginning infections in the area i described.

Not once in any way did she acknowlelge any of this. She had never heard of a prion disease infecting wild sheep. I offered data supporting this.

The core of science is for new insights to challenge the old. Complicating this of course was her fan club , which at times became rude offensive.

I would have thought, as a person off science. she would have adamatly requested that they stop and encourage that we all go to examiing separatable variables.

"Hunting wife" did none of the above and showed not a hint of openess to new ideas even when supported by valid sources.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Comparing maps of where Elk Hoof Rot has been found in the areas I discussed, and then overlapping those hoof rot sites with wolf concentration maps there is something of note.



No elk hoof rot was recorded where the wolf concentrations were the highest.



Very premature to draw any conclusions, time will tell. I will keep and eye on things there, make some phone calls and see.



We do have the ideal situation where the chances for predator bio-remediation are the highest.



What I thought was the “lowest” was the ill will, and nay-saying response from so many ”Hunt-Talkers.



Here we have a disease, with no known cure, caused by humans, that just spreads and gets worse and causes terrible pain to elk.



And except for maybe just one of those who reposonded, none of the rest of you could even hope for a positive outcome via classic predator-prey relationship. So stuck you are in your old ways of thinking.

 

[texwest44]

Why does phony stoicism seem worse than the phony intellectualism that comes with it?

And, not to be a big ol hole poker, but a few things are getting overlooked in all the heat around here:

1) Classic predator-prey relationships can't really be a thoroughly effective solution across the board, with consistency, in situations like this; classic predator-prey relationships didn't create the issue. We've seen some of the results that occur when humans try to guide this relationship as a solution to man-made ecological problems, and it hasn't been a lot of success stories.

2) Diseases travel with animals, and infects new animals in new places. Know what drives animal movement? Migration, climate, human activity, and get this: predation, too. And a variety of other factors. CWD is being spread by humans carrying live and dead deer around in trucks all over the USA - how the heck can predators manage something like that? I know you're more focused on EHR, but they're all sordidly connected by the human factor.

3) Wolves are opportunistic predators. That means obviously they'll get any wounded sick prey animals, but they're also going to get literally anything they can clamp their teeth on. Perfectly healthy elk stuck in a marshy area, perfectly healthy deer that trips and falls, etc. If they have the opportunity, they're taking it.

4) Not to lose friends around here, but I grew up raising a wide variety of livestock, and losing a few here and there on the range is part of the game. If you're not insuring and budgeting for lost livestock, you're not using your head. Nothing was worse than anthrax outbreaks, by the way. Predators never put us in a situation where we had to pile up dead cattle and burn them, and that kind of stuff was in the ground long before humans showed up. For whatever that might be worth.

It's a complicated set of issues that changes every 60 miles, folks. There's no easy answer.

 

[Panda Bear]

To HW,
A biologist. I am amazed. I guess you can just put yout biology degree and crtical thinking aside and replace it with a hunting license and tribal groupthink.

I was not attacking her credentials.

I am out !