I Wish Them Well, Wolves verus Elk Hoof Rot Disease

[Mustangs Rule]

What ur saying is sad, no doubt
But Wtz ur answer…..human population control…..human culling?

Thank you for your post and asking an important question.

The answer is just what I do my best to offer here on HT, education. I was very lucky. I was in the right time and right place. I was a poor farmboy who loved the outdoors and was able to catch a window.

It cost me $200 total for four years of tuition at a state college to earn a degree in biology. All thanks to President Dwight D, Eisenhower. In 1958 he created the National Emergency Education Act.

Among many other things, the science of wildlife biology really took off. I do not know how much time I have left on this planet, but whatever I do have I will spend being an advocate for wildlife biology.

During the late 50's, 60's and 70's we began learning so much about how the natural world worked and produced a army wildlife speicalists. Many of which, like myself, are life long hunters.

As best as I can I try and undo the false narrative that has been spread by the various interest groups, predator control being one of them. Is there a place for it, absolutely yes. Has it gone completly out of control, absoluyely yes, IMHO.

About ten years ago a close friend in Wyoming wanted to show me something.

He took me to a fenceline. On one side was puplic land. Pretty much grazed to dirt by cattle. On the other side it was huge chunck of private land and had as much as possible been restored. A few cattle were there, but mainly it was now a place for wildlife.

It was like a paradise. Natural feed was everywhere, the land was rich and nutricious, game animals were everywhere, large and small and there was not a hint of predetor control.

On another trip I was driving and camping around the southwest. There are these isolated mountain ranges that rise right up out of the desert called "Sky Islands".

One had the entire top protected as a rare grouse habitat. No cattle grazing was allowed. It was beautiful, green, lush even. The grouse flushed, the deer bounced around everywhere. It was hunters paradise. And hunting was totally allowed,

All around it the public land was grazed to dust.

 

[JV842]

I was truly not trying to be a “smart ass” as it was an honest question.
I feel a lot of people make us; humans, out to be the bad guy and the cause for all that is “wrong with the world”
Most of these problems created by; or not by, man, I feel were actually done to solve a problem, make something better, or necessity. Irrigation, animal husbandry, lumber, how could we have and continue to survive without?
Yes there are and will continue to be unintended and unexpected consequences because we are not “all knowing beings”
I feel I am a simple man; only a high school diploma and very little college, and all of this is just my “observation” and personal question of which I definitely do not have an answer for.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Huntingwife incoming. mtmuley

I just can’t. I can seriously drive myself crazy trying to correct misinterpretation, cherry-picked “facts” and hyperbole, and for what?

First I’ve ever heard of a prion disease called scabies wiping out all the bighorns though. Must be very cutting edge

Also still waiting for the wolves to fix the foot rot at the Elk Refuge. They’ve had several decades now…I want my money back.

 

[Dakota79]

I just can’t. I can seriously drive myself crazy trying to correct misinterpretation, cherry-picked “facts” and hyperbole, and for what?

First I’ve ever heard of a prion disease called scabies wiping out all the bighorns though. Must be very cutting edge

Also still waiting for the wolves to fix the foot rot at the Elk Refuge. They’ve had several decades now…I want my money back.

Nicely done!

 

[shines@times]

Considering the real possbility that wolves could help in some areas, offers relief.

Or, just possibly, that is a sop to your feelings of helplessness.

When the "The Tone" asked rhetorically: "So if it’s from spraying herbicide will wolves stop the helicopters and timber companies?" he had a valid point, which you snidely dismissed.

Serious questions: Are elk densities cited as contributing to the severity of hoof rot? Does general health of the individual animal keep the affliction in check in that individual? Or, is the disease so virulent that nutrition and an animal's immune system offer no protection once the bacteria gains a foothold?

The simple fact is the problem is one of over population and over consumption by humans, not elk, or wolves either. Every user group has its priorities and agendas. If the problem is actually precipitated by herbicide usage, then the best that can be expected from predators harassing elk would be a slowing of the disease spread. A worst case scenario, would be wolves actually dispersing infected elk into even wider distribution by their continual harassment of the prey.

Perhaps, rather than wishing the wolves well, you might contribute more to the health of elk herds by lobbying to stop pesticide spraying on timber lands. As a biologist, I'm sure you know that a tree plantation is not a forest. Mono cultures and their intensive chemical management seem to me the greater issue--I, for one, don't expect wolves to address it.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I just can’t. I can seriously drive myself crazy trying to correct misinterpretation, cherry-picked “facts” and hyperbole, and for what?

First I’ve ever heard of a prion disease called scabies wiping out all the bighorns though. Must be very cutting edge

Also still waiting for the wolves to fix the foot rot at the Elk Refuge. They’ve had several decades now…I want my money back.

Sorry, Scabies versus scrapies.

Scrapies not scabies is the prion based disease in question.


https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/443450-how-sheep-ranching-spreads-disease.



This article talks about the prion based disease called scrapie in domestic sheep that is considered the source of CWD.



Domestic sheep were kept in a confined area with deer and the scrabie disease jumped from sheep to deer.



Scabies is a mite infection from domestic sheep that has been wiping out bighorns for many decades.

I did not know of any elk hoof rot at the elk refuge in Wyoming.

My data sources only indicate it is the Pacific Northwest.

Do you have any references on that?

 

[Randi]

You guys just don’t get it at all.

Dont confuse, not getting it, with not agreeing with you. Several of the men on the forum, have both experience and knowledge, of the issues being discussed, as do these two females.

If in doubt--------bring in the Wolves--- or----- kill the Wolves

I just can’t. I can seriously drive myself crazy trying to correct misinterpretation, cherry-picked “facts” and hyperbole, and for what?

First I’ve ever heard of a prion disease called scabies wiping out all the bighorns though. Must be very cutting edge

Also still waiting for the wolves to fix the foot rot at the Elk Refuge. They’ve had several decades now…I want my money back.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Sorry, Scabies versus scrapies.

Scrapies not scabies is the prion based disease in question.


https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/443450-how-sheep-ranching-spreads-disease.



This article talks about the prion based disease called scrapie in domestic sheep that is considered the source of CWD.



Domestic sheep were kept in a confined area with deer and the scrabie disease jumped from sheep to deer.



Scabies is a mite infection from domestic sheep that has been wiping out bighorns for many decades.

I did not know of any elk hoof rot at the elk refuge in Wyoming.

My data sources only indicate it is the Pacific Northwest.

Do you have any references on that?

Bruce Smith, Dr. Thomas Roffe and Eric Cole have written numerous technical reports and management documents discussing Wyoming feedgrounds and disease, with emphasis on NER, including necrotic stomatitis and necrotic pododermatitis (aka foot rot). I used to have these in my old office, but do not see them readily available online.

IIRC…Reports of foot rot on Wyoming feedgrounds go all the way back to the 1920’s. I believe even Murie reported on it in the 40’s or 50’s(?). Annual incidence and mortality are highly dependent on environmental conditions. Causative agent in this region is primarily Fusobacterium necrophorum. I am not aware of any modern publications specific to the foot rot however.

I spent four winters down there shooting lame elk and sending feet to the lab to document continued presence. That work was ongoing when I left and to my knowledge is unpublished.

 

[antlerradar]

Don't argue with the wife.
The wife is always right, Well there might have been one time she was mistaken.

 

[longbow51]

Huntingwife incoming. mtmuley

Yep, that's what I was hoping for too.

 

[np307]

It cost me $200 total for four years of tuition at a state college to earn a degree in biology.

Any chance you could get your money back?

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Bruce Smith, Dr. Thomas Roffe and Eric Cole have written numerous technical reports and management documents discussing Wyoming feedgrounds and disease, with emphasis on NER, including necrotic stomatitis and necrotic pododermatitis (aka foot rot). I used to have these in my old office, but do not see them readily available online.

IIRC…Reports of foot rot on Wyoming feedgrounds go all the way back to the 1920’s. I believe even Murie reported on it in the 40’s or 50’s(?). Annual incidence and mortality are highly dependent on environmental conditions. Causative agent in this region is primarily Fusobacterium necrophorum. I am not aware of any modern publications specific to the foot rot however.

I spent four winters down there shooting lame elk and sending feet to the lab to document continued presence. That work was ongoing when I left and to my knowledge is unpublished.

Very Very intereresting. I had no knowledge of that. Thank you. Yet another disease from keeping animals in a unatural condensed condition.

Has it spread into wild elk? That is where the foot rot in elk started here in the PNW to the best of my knowledge.

A people of science both you and I have a goal. It is not about winning, not about being precieved as right or wrong by a booing or cheering audiance, but instead seeking the scientific truth as best we can.

I am a two time, refugee from diseases carried by animals.

I grew up up southern New England where the only canine predator was a very rare red fox. Deer were also very rare. Almost non existent.

Next came an overproduction of milk. My family were dairy farmers. I know the history of the industry well. There was a state buy out of farmers dairy cattle, then a huge unnatural burst in second growth forest when the dairy cows where gone. The pastures exploded with ideal food for deer.

Then came the deer, everywhere. Suddenly hunters were allowed to take three, four or five deer. Then came Lymes' disease. I know people who have had it three or four times. Then came a warmer moister climate perfect for ticks to expand their range and period of yearly activity.

Yale medical school has done some of the most complete research on the origin and explosion of Lymes's. Mutlple factors are in the equation. One which is omipresent is a lack of pedators large and small,,,a total lack of environmetal integrity.

I just learned last week that the casuative agent for Lymes's in Europe is a varation on the one here.

That said, Europe has bee dealing with Lymes' s too.

One of thier bio-remediation tools, has been to limit the killing of small predators, like foxes, and mustelids, who feed on rodents.

Mice and shrews are heavy carriers of Lymes's. The Yale study offered some very high percentages,,,up tp 80%

So, what was found in Belguium was when they cut back on the hunting of small predators, which ate the small carriers of lymes disease, the number of people who got lymes dropped significanly.

I must go now but will continue later.

You seem so resistant to even looking at using any type of predator based bio-remediation. There are so many more examples of it being used sucessfully.

Later, and thank for the informarion about elk hoof rot in the Elk refuge.

 

[SAJ-99]

I dont understand this ? Do you feel that the reduction of Elk with hoof disease via the Wolf, will eliminate the cause of this disease ?

We are concerned about the spread of certain wildlife diseases effecting herds of Elk, Sheep, Caribou and Moose, to the extent of requiring vehicles --Cars, Trucks, Trailers, ATVs, be washed before entering the Territory, but this is to eliminate disease found in the dried mud on the vehicle.

I would be careful what you hope for in hoping that "wolves" are the answer to this problem.

Agree that it is hard to predict the end result of the interaction. However, I would say you should be careful what you hope for if you are relying on humans doing what is asked of them in order to slow the spread of diseases. That has show to be a miserable failure.

 

[cedahm]

Has it spread into wild elk?

The elk utilizing WY feedgrounds are wild elk.

Google can help you really quickly here.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Don't argue with the wife.
The wife is always right, Well there might have been one time she was mistaken.

Oh, I’m far from always right. I’m just *usually* smart enough to keep my mouth shut if I don’t know what I’m talking about.

You seem so resistant to even looking at using any type of predator based bio-remediation. There are so many more examples of it being used sucessfully.

Not at all. But I am not convinced that the solution to such complex problems is so one-dimensionally simple.

 

[antlerradar]

Oh, I’m far from always right. I’m just *usually* smart enough to keep my mouth shut if I don’t know what I’m talking about.

My wife of nearly 30 years is not right all the time ether, and I am "usually" smart enough to keep my mouth shut when she is wrong.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

The elk utilizing WY feedgrounds are wild elk.

Google can help you really quickly here.

When elk are gathered by the hundreds, thousands even. Fed all winter, are in unaturally large condensed numbers, basicaaly free of predators, placed in containments areas, are exposed to high levels of ther own poop and pee, run though chutes and screened for CWD, thier wildness is severely compromised.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

You can kill all of the damn elk you want with wolves or otherwise but that is not going to change the bacteria in the soil. What you're saying about wolves solving this isn't adding up.t

It adds up perfectly if the major source of contamination and recontamination is in the exposed wet soil in there heavily used game trails.

Then, each and every contaminated elk taken out of their travel routes reduces oportunity for exposure to the causative agents.

The same principals operate in gyms with the spread of athletes foot. High traffic areas now have plastics floor grids to reduces the chance of fungus contact.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Oh, I’m far from always right. I’m just *usually* smart enough to keep my mouth shut if I don’t know what I’m talking about.


Not at all. But I am not convinced that the solution to such complex problems is so one-dimensionally simple.

I do not sense a scientific mind operating in you.



There are endless examples to draw information from to at least stimulate valid curiosity. You sound like all you offer is an open and shut case advocating for a repeat of the thousands of year old, and totally destructive patterns of herding societies.



For a decade I attended the Yellowstone Institute every summer and took one classes after another. Many were about predator prey relationships. I did this both before and after wolf reintroduction.



Surely you must be aware of the many ecological problems that were solved with the return of the apex predator.



First of all the elk were in such overabundant numbers that they browsed down young aspen for decades until there was no renewal of the Aspen forest, hence no material for beavers to build dams with, hence almost no watershed storage, hence no habitat for the animals that depended on water.



The riparian zones were being trashed by elk hanging out there, just as cattle do elsewhere. Their hooves plow the land they fertilize it and this results in unnatural brush growing which maximizes fire damage when wildfires come through. Just the mere presence of wolves kept them out of the lush areas which rebounded quickly with the return of wolves. The ecology of fear at work here and with rodents not moving around as much in the presence smaller predators. End results,,, far less lymes disease transfer to people. Back to YNP



There were so few deer back then and the land was overgrazed by elk and the browse lines were so high that deer had no access.



All that changed in an ecological heartbeat when wolves were returned.



On other predator notes surely as a biologist you must be aware of the way predators self limit their own numbers if unhunted.



Adolf Murie prior to WW2 with wild canines showed that if the pack alpha dominant male/female were killed then and only then subordinate pack members began breeding.



Surely you must have learned that when dominant mountain lions are hunted and killed, the populations of sub-adult mountain lions soars. The Big Toms are killing machines of young lions.



You must known that British Columbia, especially Vancouver Island is the lion hunting capitol of North America, and also has the highest concentration of lions in NA. Mostly they are adolescents lion, and they in turn created the highest numbers of domestic animals being killed and attacks on humans.



Examples of successful predator bio-remediation abound as do lessons of the problems hunting predatots create. All I hear from you is nay-saying.



I am a life long hunter and a biologist, but the biologist will always come first

 

[TheTone]

First time I went to Yellowstone was pre wolf; I remember seeing numerous deer and moose. I went multiple times post wolf probably 2-3 times/year for about 5 years. I never saw a moose or deer in those times. Also did some multiple low level flights for wildlife surveys over the park, again no moose seen. Wolves didn’t crap rainbows in the park and turn it into a utopia