I just saw three salmon headed to idaho
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JoseCuervo
New member
Hey Cheese,
If you notice, it was BHR who was whining about the snowpack. If you have a problem, address it with him. I don't give a flip about the snowpack as it relates to dams being breached. The longterm amount of water is what the decision should be made off of, not a single year's number. A concept way too complex for you to understand.
But, if money is not the answer, then you explain to me Paul's concerns about energy costs without considering money..... (This will be a funny explanation from the Cheese!!) LMAO...
If you notice, it was BHR who was whining about the snowpack. If you have a problem, address it with him. I don't give a flip about the snowpack as it relates to dams being breached. The longterm amount of water is what the decision should be made off of, not a single year's number. A concept way too complex for you to understand.
But, if money is not the answer, then you explain to me Paul's concerns about energy costs without considering money..... (This will be a funny explanation from the Cheese!!) LMAO...
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Buzz,
Please elaborate......"You know do things like increase efficiency of other dams, etc. etc. etc.".
Any links to how we can increase dam efficiency and what it would cost? Be more specific with the ect. ect. ect.. I see your still using false data to promote your agenda.....
"you can use the 100 million a year savings from the dam breaching to solve that problem...." By now even a moron would figure out that 1.87 cents per kw is way low, so I guess that makes you a lying weasel.
I also notice that neither you or gunner have attempted to address T Bones other comments. I knew you couldn't come up with a response to his REAL Issue's. If you want dam breaching to proceed, you need to be honest and deal with these concerns first. I see gunner's not into conservation. How about you Buzz, what are you doing to lessen your dependence on electricity?
Jose,
I didn't know Idaho Power provided electricity south of the border. Thanks for the update.
Please elaborate......"You know do things like increase efficiency of other dams, etc. etc. etc.".
Any links to how we can increase dam efficiency and what it would cost? Be more specific with the ect. ect. ect.. I see your still using false data to promote your agenda.....
"you can use the 100 million a year savings from the dam breaching to solve that problem...." By now even a moron would figure out that 1.87 cents per kw is way low, so I guess that makes you a lying weasel.
I also notice that neither you or gunner have attempted to address T Bones other comments. I knew you couldn't come up with a response to his REAL Issue's. If you want dam breaching to proceed, you need to be honest and deal with these concerns first. I see gunner's not into conservation. How about you Buzz, what are you doing to lessen your dependence on electricity?
Jose,
I didn't know Idaho Power provided electricity south of the border. Thanks for the update.
Tom
New member
I don't believe the 100 million, I decided that's what's needed, a group to get together and tie down those numbers better and make a joint economic report. Its just people yelling at each other, we loose this, we gain that, no joint effort to settle the differences and solve the problem. So, we have the status quo, no solution, right? It sounds bad.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Tom,
If the solution was easy, it would have been dealt with years ago. It's not possible to come up with a solution when some of the participants refuse to be intellectually honest. Politics at it's finest!
If the solution was easy, it would have been dealt with years ago. It's not possible to come up with a solution when some of the participants refuse to be intellectually honest. Politics at it's finest!
MarvB
Well-known member
Gunner-
You mentioned that you purchase green power from IP, do they actually produce a certified Green-e product or are they just buying green tags? If I remember right, Idaho Power bought into some of that BEF resource (like Stateline wind) back in 2001 but didn’t have any true green production of there own? (Ty, you might remember this from your time in Idaho?)
We (the utility I work for) are looking into purchasing a portion of a couple of wind projects as this is written since our large hydro portion doesn’t qualify for green under the renewables portfolio. The one thing you may/maynot know Gunner is that a VERY small percentage of that extra $$ you pay actually gets back into environmental concerns…most the premium goes to advertising, reporting, the “green” newsletter that most consumers will get, and the management of the green tags themselves. Also, and you likely know this, just because a consumer purchases “green energy” doesn’t mean the power he/she is ACTUALLY consuming is anymore environmentally friendly than basic thermal gen. It may only mean that company A bought the attached green energy tags from company B who is producing certified generation. The green tags can be, and generally are, bought separately from the actual energy produced.
I’ve probably bored you enough already but I guess the point I’m making is beware of the green colored gift wrapping on a lot of these packages…what’s inside is just the same ol’ chit!
You mentioned that you purchase green power from IP, do they actually produce a certified Green-e product or are they just buying green tags? If I remember right, Idaho Power bought into some of that BEF resource (like Stateline wind) back in 2001 but didn’t have any true green production of there own? (Ty, you might remember this from your time in Idaho?)
We (the utility I work for) are looking into purchasing a portion of a couple of wind projects as this is written since our large hydro portion doesn’t qualify for green under the renewables portfolio. The one thing you may/maynot know Gunner is that a VERY small percentage of that extra $$ you pay actually gets back into environmental concerns…most the premium goes to advertising, reporting, the “green” newsletter that most consumers will get, and the management of the green tags themselves. Also, and you likely know this, just because a consumer purchases “green energy” doesn’t mean the power he/she is ACTUALLY consuming is anymore environmentally friendly than basic thermal gen. It may only mean that company A bought the attached green energy tags from company B who is producing certified generation. The green tags can be, and generally are, bought separately from the actual energy produced.
I’ve probably bored you enough already but I guess the point I’m making is beware of the green colored gift wrapping on a lot of these packages…what’s inside is just the same ol’ chit!
JoseCuervo
New member
Marv,
And yes, I am aware that the watt that hits my light bulb may not have actually came from the windmill 300 miles away, and more likely, it came from a dam in Hells Canyon with NO FISH PASSAGE despite the license issued by Federal Government.
I am sure my gesture is a token/symbolic gesture, but it also allows the Environmental Groups to be able to fight more effectively against Idaho Powers License to continue to prevent my children from catching Salmon and Steelhead in the river 5 miles from my house.
Here is the link to Idaho Power's Green Program.
http://www.idahopower.com/energycenter/greenpower/default.htm
There are also some other efforts going on, like installing a switch on your AC that Idaho Power can turn off in the afternoons when the power is tight. For a handful of days, I think I can suffer with a hotter house if Idaho Power will start addressing the issues with the shortcomings of their license renewal applications.
And yes, I am aware that the watt that hits my light bulb may not have actually came from the windmill 300 miles away, and more likely, it came from a dam in Hells Canyon with NO FISH PASSAGE despite the license issued by Federal Government.
I am sure my gesture is a token/symbolic gesture, but it also allows the Environmental Groups to be able to fight more effectively against Idaho Powers License to continue to prevent my children from catching Salmon and Steelhead in the river 5 miles from my house.
Here is the link to Idaho Power's Green Program.
http://www.idahopower.com/energycenter/greenpower/default.htm
There are also some other efforts going on, like installing a switch on your AC that Idaho Power can turn off in the afternoons when the power is tight. For a handful of days, I think I can suffer with a hotter house if Idaho Power will start addressing the issues with the shortcomings of their license renewal applications.
MarvB
Well-known member
Thanks for the link- I'll check it out. Figured you knew, but its amazing the number of folks who don't and think that every kW they turn is coming from a set of spinning blades on the gorge 
I always ask them how do they think theire green is provided when the wind ISN'T blowing?
I truely hope that it does make a difference for my kids as well. Unfortunately most of the programs I see don't get much $$ down to a level that makes a impact, it just gets consumed in the fluff.
By the by...Like Tyson, I'm all for the survival of the anadromous fish (and love to fight em' by the way) but it (the energy situation and drought) are tough nuts to crack and it's true you shouldn't make policy concerning renewables based of a single delivery season but this water shortage is the real deal.
I just finished reading the current forecast from the Northwest Power and Conservation Council and they are marking this year as the 11th lowest out of 77 years ... Based (as they do) on the current market value of lost hydro to the rolling 50-years average is about $900 million for this year alone! Unfortunately, those are the kind of numbers that tend to get politicians attention before the fish do
Does IP offer "time-of-use" rates? Thats another thing we are looking at here to build a better load factor (shift on-peak power to off-peak periods) but its so damn hot in the summers here that AC still rules supreme...
I always ask them how do they think theire green is provided when the wind ISN'T blowing? I truely hope that it does make a difference for my kids as well. Unfortunately most of the programs I see don't get much $$ down to a level that makes a impact, it just gets consumed in the fluff.
By the by...Like Tyson, I'm all for the survival of the anadromous fish (and love to fight em' by the way) but it (the energy situation and drought) are tough nuts to crack and it's true you shouldn't make policy concerning renewables based of a single delivery season but this water shortage is the real deal.
I just finished reading the current forecast from the Northwest Power and Conservation Council and they are marking this year as the 11th lowest out of 77 years ... Based (as they do) on the current market value of lost hydro to the rolling 50-years average is about $900 million for this year alone! Unfortunately, those are the kind of numbers that tend to get politicians attention before the fish do
Does IP offer "time-of-use" rates? Thats another thing we are looking at here to build a better load factor (shift on-peak power to off-peak periods) but its so damn hot in the summers here that AC still rules supreme...
JoseCuervo
New member
Marv,
Any thoughts on Dubya's latest hair-brained idea? He wants to start charging market rates for BPA energy instead of Cost+? How much harder will it be to wean the market from the miniscule amount of energy from the Lower Snake if it becomes a contributor to the General Fund?
And keep in mind, we pay $0.0493 per Kwh
Any thoughts on Dubya's latest hair-brained idea? He wants to start charging market rates for BPA energy instead of Cost+? How much harder will it be to wean the market from the miniscule amount of energy from the Lower Snake if it becomes a contributor to the General Fund?
And keep in mind, we pay $0.0493 per Kwh
MarvB
Well-known member
I'll trade you my $0.0882
That current plan you speak of is pretty full of holes (some which start with the letter "A") IMHO. The premise that they are just trying to limit BPA's borrowing from the treasurey at $4.5B is a smokescreen and will bite them in the ass. Point of fact is that market rates will (at times) add more money into BPA's coffers thus indeed reducing the need to borrow $$ BUT
the times at when the hydro is surplus enough to sell is also when the market is at its softest so the rate of return will be nothing like they expect. When the market is strong and prices are up, its generally due to less energy on the market and they too will have less to sell.
Plus in times of poor hydro they will have to go outside the gubmint for borrowing (above the $4.5B) at exceedingly higher interest rates thus chewing up in profits they might have had....etc, etc.
Amounts to about a 40% hike for rates in the region or a $2.5B energy tax if you want to look at it that way...also impacts breeching thoughts!
One thing I could never figure out with BPA is why their downstream customers get to resale Federal power??? We get a large portion of our energy from another Fed.- Western Area Power- and by mandate, cannot take in energy from Western that is superfluous (sp?) to our load. That is, we cannot resale energy from the Central Valley Project. All energy deliveries go to preference customers first (for load) and only after that can energy be sold to market (by Western only).
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Thanks Marv for bringing your knowledge and intellectual honesty into this discusion. Very refreshing. We will be facing some difficult choices in the road ahead, and making the right choice is going require honest dialoge and facts. Not a bunch of hype and propoganda.
Tom
New member
According to this chart Oregon and Washington are amoungst the lowest electric rates in the country.
http://www.jea.com/services/electric/rates_quarterly.asp
http://www.jea.com/services/electric/rates_quarterly.asp
JoseCuervo
New member
Tom said:
And they thank the rest of the nation for funding their electricity.....
T Bone
Well-known member
No easy answers to save the fish, that's for sure.
Gunner,
It would be fantastic to catch wild steelhead in the boise again like my grandpa did when he was a kid. For now, we'll have to settle on watching the F&G tankers unload the surplus fish behind BSU.
There is alot of habitat in the snake, payette, and boise drainages still suitable for spawning if the smolt could get through the ponds on the way back to the salt.
I worked with an IPC fish guy that transferred into my department a few years ago. 4 years ago they were doing habitat studies around swan falls for spawning beds. They founds plenty of favorable river bed, but water temps were a concern.
Marv, I believe BPA only allows resale of certain contracts. Some are for counterparty load only.
Buzz, forgive my ignorance, but who or what is shrub?
I havn't read or thought much about the scuttlebutt of bpa and wapa going to market rates. Been busy destroying native habitat by getting a yard and fence put in, so the wolves don't carry away the kids.
Gunner,
It would be fantastic to catch wild steelhead in the boise again like my grandpa did when he was a kid. For now, we'll have to settle on watching the F&G tankers unload the surplus fish behind BSU.
There is alot of habitat in the snake, payette, and boise drainages still suitable for spawning if the smolt could get through the ponds on the way back to the salt.
I worked with an IPC fish guy that transferred into my department a few years ago. 4 years ago they were doing habitat studies around swan falls for spawning beds. They founds plenty of favorable river bed, but water temps were a concern.
Marv, I believe BPA only allows resale of certain contracts. Some are for counterparty load only.
Buzz, forgive my ignorance, but who or what is shrub?
I havn't read or thought much about the scuttlebutt of bpa and wapa going to market rates. Been busy destroying native habitat by getting a yard and fence put in, so the wolves don't carry away the kids.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tbone...shrub is the dude that should have been "pruned" from the whitehouse last November.
JoseCuervo
New member
T-Bone, or we fishermen can get behind Idaho Rivers United and help them hold Idaho Power to the terms of the ORIGINAL license during this re-newal. The original license for Hells Canyon included fish passage for the Salmon and Steelhead up into the middle Snake, Boise, Weiser, and even all the way into Nevada via the Jarbridge. Can you believe Nevada had Salmon runs????T Bone said:
When Brownlee was built, the fish "diverter" was a disaster and didn't work, so they didn't even bother putting any fish passage in Oxbow or Hells Canyon. (So Rapid River was built.) If the Feds were to force Idaho Power to live up to the original license, that would be a step in the right direction.
_________________________
Hey Marv,
What is the wholesale price of Power that BPA sells at the dams? How much at Whoops #2?
T Bone
Well-known member
Jose,
Even if IPC built the ladders for the fish going up, how do the smolt get down? Natural river all the way from Twin Falls to Portland would be the best answer in a subjective world.
Even if IPC built the ladders for the fish going up, how do the smolt get down? Natural river all the way from Twin Falls to Portland would be the best answer in a subjective world.
Tom
New member
I'm thinking the sea lions are the key today. They're smart, its a smolt boom for them, right? The sea lions are gathering up to get the smolt. Wherever they hang out is where people should put the smolt traps, where ever the sea lions are, get the smolt there loaded up and moved down river.
Unless people sit and agree on a long term solution, only the smolt people will try to save the smolt with patch it up type methods. If you show the others it will help the economy somehow, then they'll help with the smolt too.
How long does it take a smolt to get down river, that must be a long time? It seems like they'd kill themselves or weaken themselves if they had to swim instead of use the current so much. Its a lot easier to move a canoe down river than down lake. I'll bet its similar for smolt. They're screwed, those little smolts, who built those damns? They didn't care about the smolts much back then, eh.
Unless people sit and agree on a long term solution, only the smolt people will try to save the smolt with patch it up type methods. If you show the others it will help the economy somehow, then they'll help with the smolt too.
How long does it take a smolt to get down river, that must be a long time? It seems like they'd kill themselves or weaken themselves if they had to swim instead of use the current so much. Its a lot easier to move a canoe down river than down lake. I'll bet its similar for smolt. They're screwed, those little smolts, who built those damns? They didn't care about the smolts much back then, eh.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tom, the sea lions mainly eat adult salmon...I dont think they bother much with fingerling size fish...
No matter how you slice it, the dams are the main problem and anyone with a firing brain cell in their head can see that.
No matter how you slice it, the dams are the main problem and anyone with a firing brain cell in their head can see that.
